Worthless certifications

[terryl965]

In another thread the majority have stated that they believe certificates to be kinda worthless, if you are in that same place do you personally offer them or not and if so why, since you believe them to be so worthless?
Not trying to start a fight here just gathering info. for myself and the people behind those statements.
Terry

 

[matt.m]

Terry,

The GM at my school has outstanding couch plaques and that sort of thing from when he had early dan ranks. He also has an outstanding coach plaque from the American Hapkido Association.

I guess I am jaded by seeing a few other Mc Dojo's that work like this. "100.00 a month, for 36 months and you will have tested for dan by then." schools. In my school it takes roughly 5 months to test for yellow belt.

I am sure that there is importance of the kukkiwon certificate, however I have seen too many dans that I didn't think deserved their rank.

I don't have dan ranking, however I grew up the son of a hapkido master so I do have my own set of values of what is supposed to be and what isn't.

I also know that the Mc Dojo's have used and abused what Kukkiwon Certification was supposed to be and the meaning it was supposed to hold. I guess in my mind it is the 10% that have ruined it for the rest.

 

[beau_safken]

I dont know.....Pretty much everything is worthless unless it means something to you. Who knows? An athletic ability award or a best form award could be the best thing you have done with your life till now....so its all relative.

 

[John Bishop]

My is opinion is pretty simple. A certificate is only as good as the instructor giving it, and the requirements to recieve it.
Some people go thru several years of hard work and dedication to get one, and some get them with little more then a check.

 

[Kacey]

My certificates are meaningful to me because my instructor and the testing instructor for that testing signed them, as proof of their faith in my abilities; those two people were present at the testing, and were sufficiently senior to me to be able to determine whether or not I demonstrated the appropriate techniques at the correct level. The signatures from the national and international organizations are basically meaningless to me - the people who stamped the names on those certificates know nothing about me except what the testing instructor put on the testing form.

To someone walking into a class, certificates can be impressive looking - but like diplomas, if you know nothing about the organization issuing the certificates, then they mean nothing, especially in this day and age, when computer printing is so easy to access, and able to produce impressive looking documents for a minimal price.

 

[Robert Lee]

They are like showing a degree in the M/A you are instructing. How much they mean well It first shows you have trained and then through your instruction it demonstartes how well you can instruct. .certificates should be made avalible if you are teaching a established art. If its mixed well You might not need to. But there are several schools that have inflated certificates like the buddy systmem where some friend sighned off a rank that is basicly a fraud certificate. A good sighn is a 25 year old 5th dan in such and such art. certificates or belts mean little when you can not demonstrate or show in your students a skill level of achivement. Most new students will not mak calls to your past instructors to check you out. They trust you in what you say when they start. So most often a person that lies to impress will later be found out. An honest rank certificate gives credit Just as being a member of an organization shows group affliation But its not a must

 

[Ceicei]

The certificates I have are of value only to my instructor and me. It just basically a document showing an agreement of the skills I learned while training with him. Whether the certificates are of worth to others doesn't really matter to me at this point. I don't want others to judge me based on my certificates alone--I'd rather they view me through my abilities.

The certificates represent hard work in the same way the color of the belt does. The certificates and belts for me are not the goal--they're just markers along my journey.

Now when I do become an instructor, the certificates may have a bit more significance. I just only hope that the people won't put too much weight in what the certificates are, but rather view me with how I teach and how my students learn.

- Ceicei

 

[green meanie]

My is opinion is pretty simple. A certificate is only as good as the instructor giving it, and the requirements to recieve it.
Some people go thru several years of hard work and dedication to get one, and some get them with little more then a check.

I missed the original thread that Terry spoke of, but regardless, I agree with Mr. Biship's statement 100%. :asian:

 

[Dark]

It comes down to one thing, how good are you? How good are you as an instructor and how good are you at practicing your art? I good instructor can't be a cookie cut out for a larger organization or completely lost in thier ego. A certificate doesn't prove your ability to teach, just someone elses opinion of what you should know. There is still a high level of personal experience at life that crosses over to MA and visa versa, not one gives you a certificate for time served at life...

 

[bydand]

In the other thread what I posted was that I give the Instructor and the students more weight than whatever certifications are hanging on the wall (paraphrased version here.) That wasn't meant to mean that I don't give any weight to certifications, just they are just a measure of continued training and quality of training for the Instructor. Given equal class dynamics and preceved Instructor quality, I would rather train with someone who has certification from a known/trusted source than from someone with a certification from "Billy Bob's House O' Chop-Chop." That my be a slightly elitist view and Ol' Billy may know his stuff, but....

Given that viewpoint, I think there is a valuable place FOR certifications, just not the be-all, end-all in choosing whatever school and style you end up doing. I think they should be given out if nothing more than a written record of training and achevment for the individual. If you train under someone, you should have enough faith in what is being taught that a certificate is valuable to you. If it is something that you wouldn't want other MA's to see, maybe it is time to rethink why you are training there.

 

[pstarr]

I agree with Bydand.

 

[Dark]

I agree with Bydand.

I stopped believing in the importance of rank certificates when I found I could buy blank ones for 20 for $12, I agree that a reconized group holds sway but look at allot of the damage the larger MA orgs have done to MAs. JKA, USKA, ATA etc.

 

[pstarr]

Understood - but you wouldn't go to a doctor who didn't have a certificate indicating that he graduated med school or a license to practice...

Those can be generated on a computer, too...but just the same, I like to issue them just to indicate that the student has achieved something.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

My is opinion is pretty simple. A certificate is only as good as the instructor giving it, and the requirements to recieve it.
Some people go thru several years of hard work and dedication to get one, and some get them with little more then a check.

That says it all. I agree 100%. I'd like to add, however, that TKD certificates from independent schools are just as valuable to the person who earned them as Kukkiwon certificates are to those who earned them. Some of the most outstanding TKD experts I have met have nothing, and want nothing to do with the Kukkiwon. The certificates they issue are not worthless simply because some "official" organization in Korea doesn't recognize them. Not that anyone said this; just wanted to clarify where I stood on the matter.

 

[MJS]

It comes down to one thing, how good are you? How good are you as an instructor and how good are you at practicing your art? I good instructor can't be a cookie cut out for a larger organization or completely lost in thier ego. A certificate doesn't prove your ability to teach, just someone elses opinion of what you should know. There is still a high level of personal experience at life that crosses over to MA and visa versa, not one gives you a certificate for time served at life...

I agree with this. I was thinking about that other thread in question the other day, and came up with this analogy: I can go to college to become a lawyer and get a degree. Just because I have that degree it does not mean that a) I'll end up getting a job in a law firm, b) that it'll be the best firm out there, c) that I'll end up getting the best cases right off the bat, d) that I'll end up winning every single case that I get.

If someone trains in the arts, and gets a certificate, takes a training course thru their job, etc., certs. are usually handed out saying that (insert name) has completed the basic course in (insert course title). This however, does not mean in any way, shape or form, that I'm going to apply the material. One would hope, but its not always the case. I have my 3rd degree cert. as well as all my others, but what its ultimately going to come down to, is how well I perform under the conditions.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Understood - but you wouldn't go to a doctor who didn't have a certificate indicating that he graduated med school or a license to practice...

Those can be generated on a computer, too...but just the same, I like to issue them just to indicate that the student has achieved something.

Thats correct. Does it mean that he's going to be a good doctor? Considering people sue for malpractice all the time, I think that speaks for itself.

Mike

 

[stickarts]

In another thread the majority have stated that they believe certificates to be kinda worthless, if you are in that same place do you personally offer them or not and if so why, since you believe them to be so worthless?
Not trying to start a fight here just gathering info. for myself and the people behind those statements.
Terry

For me, the certs I have received directly from my instructors have the most meaning because I have great respect for them and their recognition of my improvement personally means a lot.
Owning a school, they also serve as one form of credentials.
Once the student is in the school, then of course you have to sink or swim on your own merits!
Beyond that, i don't give much more thought to the certs.
The real value for me is in the training, helping others, and sharing martial arts with the community.
So in a nutshell, they do have meaning to me but they aren't a huge area of focus for me either.
I don't judge myself but leave that to my students, peers, and instructors.

 

[MJS]

I missed the original thread that Terry spoke of, but regardless, I agree with Mr. Biship's statement 100%. :asian:

Here it is!

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35554

Mike

 

[cfr]

Certs mean nothing to me, nor do belts. My instructor is certified to teach JKD as a Full Instructor, but I really don't care. The truth of it is that if he was no good at JKD, I would leave despite his cert. My mind may change on this someday if I ever want to open a school, but I hope not.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't think certificates are worthless, in fact to some degree I think they are sort of important because they show that you have trained with someone, and in someone's opinion, you have reached a certain level of proficiency. That doesn't mean everything, but at least it is something, and it is an indicator that you didn't just read a few books, watch a few videos, make up a bunch of junk, and now think you are a teacher.

I just don't think it is important to have an affiliation or a certificate from some big governing organization. I put as much stock in an independent, sometimes more, than I would put in a big organization. I tend to be naturally suspicious of the big organizations, esp. when it comes to the martial arts. Seems like a lot of them are lorded over by a bunch of self-promoted, big-headed yahoos, who are mostly interested in having power over others to stroke their egos.