World black Belt Bureau

[ScorpionShawn]

Wow touched a nerve with some people on this post here lol. Ok Ill start with your reply...

with your words "Personally, I never understood why it matters, outside of you own school and organization. Who really cares what some other school or organization thinks" then why do you care about others or WBBB?

In fact why would anyone care to go as far as to tear something like this down when it truly means no harm to anyone unless you want people to buy into your organization?

Next question is...what is Danzan Ryu Jujitsu lol never heard of it but i will look it up might be something i would like to train myself. Also where in the hell did you see anything about my school teaching it?

Both TKD and Kenpo are polar opposite and most of the time both communities dont mix well or agree on much.

So that is why I use WBBB. The Kukkiwon and IKKA, Tracys or Speakman systems do not mix outside of their organization and it make sense why they don't i enjoy learning from all of these styles and love teaching them.

Hope using the WBBB doesn't bother you so much that you can only relate to the Tiger and not the Dragon with in you

 

[ScorpionShawn]

Hi ScorpionShawn, welcome to MartialTalk, bro. Hope you enjoy it here.

Nice vids, thanks for sharing them. I enjoyed them.

Thank you sir I have over 100 videos on youtube. If you have any questions about then. I would love to answer asap

 

[Flying Crane]

Wow touched a nerve with some people on this post here lol. Ok Ill start with your reply...

with your words "Personally, I never understood why it matters, outside of you own school and organization. Who really cares what some other school or organization thinks" then why do you care about others or WBBB?

In fact why would anyone care to go as far as to tear something like this down when it truly means no harm to anyone unless you want people to buy into your organization?

Next question is...what is Danzan Ryu Jujitsu lol never heard of it but i will look it up might be something i would like to train myself. Also where in the hell did you see anything about my school teaching it?

Both TKD and Kenpo are polar opposite and most of the time both communities dont mix well or agree on much.

So that is why I use WBBB. The Kukkiwon and IKKA, Tracys or Speakman systems do not mix outside of their organization and it make sense why they don't i enjoy learning from all of these styles and love teaching them.

Hope using the WBBB doesn't bother you so much that you can only relate to the Tiger and not the Dragon with in you

I don’t have a dog in this race and in the end people can and will do what they want, and it doesn’t matter to me.

However, since this is the topic of discussion, I will weigh in with my opinion.

I feel that membership in such an organization actually does the opposite of what people may be trying to accomplish by becoming a member. In my eyes, it undermines the legitimacy of their professed ranking.

There is no real quality control in place. They recognize rank based on one’s word which may or may not be honest, and they do so for a fee while having taken no part in the hard work of training a student, which means they are simply looking to make a profit off the labor of others, while assuming an authority that they have no legitimate claim to. A large part of their operation is based on the insecurities of folks who crave recognition, and they take advantage of those insecurities. And they are an open door for people to inflate their rank at their whim, without any further training or justification.

When it comes down to it, I hold these rankings in zero regard. None.

The only ranking I would give any credence to is that given by one’s instructor, or given by the parent organization at the recommendation of one’s instructor. All others, including “recognizing organizations” like this one, I utterly disregard.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Maybe it is because I am a TCMA (Traditional Chinese Martial Arts) person and we don't deal with belts, but my view of this is if that is what makes you happy then register, it will likely make the org happy because they got more $$$.

However, my feeling on getting a belt in one organization/style and then going to another organization/style and expecting to have that rank honored or not wanting to wear the white belt again is purely an ego issue. Maintaining a beginners mind is the best way to learn. Show up thinking you're a master then there is no learning possible...due to ones ego..

 

[wab25]

Wow touched a nerve with some people on this post here lol. Ok Ill start with your reply...

with your words "Personally, I never understood why it matters, outside of you own school and organization. Who really cares what some other school or organization thinks" then why do you care about others or WBBB?

In fact why would anyone care to go as far as to tear something like this down when it truly means no harm to anyone unless you want people to buy into your organization?

Sorry, but no nerves were touched. I am sorry you felt attacked by my post. I was not trying to tear you or anything else down. My apologies if you felt that way, it was not intended.

I was trying to give a perspective from a guy looking into your school... what would make me want to join? The only certificate I would want to see, is the one from your organization, in the art you are teaching. (and not for the reason you think, more on this below) What I am looking at is your technique as the instructor, is it good and effective? Is your students techniques good and effective? (if your students can't get it... I probably won't either... a good instructor should be able to get his students to progress with good technique as well) Then I am looking at how the class works. These are things that make me want to train with you or not. The number of certificates on your wall, the number of trophies in your window... don't mean anything to me or my decision to train with you. If you are teaching me Judo... I don't care what your TKD rank is. As a matter of fact, your Judo rank is not that important either... just that you are qualified to teach Judo. It more important that you can do the art and teach the art, than what color thingy you have around your waist.

Now, I did mention that I would want to see the certificate from the organization of the art you are teaching. Your organization saying you are a "15th degree Grandmaster Plus" is not going to override my thoughts if your teaching is bad and your technique is worse. But, seeing your certificate, from the correct organization, goes to your personal character. There is a guy in our organization that has a 5th dan rank. I have been on the mat with him, he is very good and teaches very well. However, when I looked up his website, at his school (which has both TKD and Danzan Ryu) he claims a higher rank, 6th dan and he claims the title of Professor. (no organization has given him that rank or title) In my view, that speaks to his character, and I would look elsewhere to train. If you can't be honest about who you are and what rank you have... why should I expect you to be honest anywhere else? Why should I now trust you? In short, the only reason to see a certificate for the art being taught, for me... is a character check.

When I look at a school to train in, I look first at the instructor: can he do the art? can he teach the art? Then I look at the students: are they learning the art? Then I look at the class format: Would I enjoy that format? If all those pan out... then I do a quick character check on the instructor, is he honest about who and what he is and what he is teaching me? The rest of the certificates and trophies and photos.... don't mean anything to me.

If you want to join the WBBB or any other Black Belt Hall of Fame type thing.... go for it. I am not looking at it anyway.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If the WBBB and the other organizations like it were openly acting merely as record keepers, then I don't imagine anyone would object to them too much.

That's not to say they would be worthwhile. The records they keep would be completely unreliable given that anyone could register any rank they wanted for the right fee. If you did want a online repository for records of ranks you've awarded, you could create your own website for that purpose which would cost less than the price of one WBBB certificate. But hey, spend your money as you like.

I did just glance through their website, and they seem to be offering more than just record keeping services. They offer rank certifications, thus implicitly backing a claimed rank with their own credibility, such as it is. They offer letters ""Granting the Instructor Authority to Register and Promote Students as well as Other Martial Artists of Other Styles/Schools". I'm having a hard time imagining how such "authority" could be in any way meaningful.

 

[ScorpionShawn]

@ Flying Crane your words: When it comes down to it I hold these rankings in zero regard. None."
Ok so i guess its silly to even bother to take the topic past that, Unless your just trolling for what ever reason.

@ Xue Sheng your words: getting a belt in one organization/style and then going to another organization/style and expecting to have that rank honored.
I agree 100% that it should not hold any weight in other styles or even in the same style but under a different school. I don't think that's what they are trying to do with WBBB at all. I don't even think ITF and WTF honor each other. Nor does Kenpo Karate Jeff Speakmen, Tracys or Larry Tatum and all of them trained under the same Master Ed Parker.

@ wab25 your words: The only certificate I would want to see, is the one from your organization, in the art you are teaching.
I agree 100% with a lot of stuff you brought up. In fact when I started TKD I looked all over town at ever school out there. In the end I went with the one that had the best looking BB and was attracted to the idea of the Kukkiwon. Then when I started Kenpo I trained with the head of the Sheriff Swat team for 10 years in my town. So I wouldn't just train with anyone. Now onto how you cert in my school. I have my own certs that says you completed everything up to BB standards as reviewed be me and others who out rank me in the systems I teach having the WBBB is just a little something extra I do for my students in the event i pass away or records are lost.

In closing here.
I was like everyone else a skeptic about the WBBB at first. Then I realized how using them as a record keeper outside of my dojo for my students could be a great benefit. I was also aware of this topic before I did go with them and I did anyway. I know there will always be people out there pointing fingers at ever organization ie the Kukkiwon.
I understand what WBBB is attended for and I approve. If someone doesn't want to train at my school because I use WBBB... ok so what. Find another school bro you wont be missed lol
Lastly do you know another organization that keeps record of all systems?
If so Ill look into them.

 

[ScorpionShawn]

 

[Xue Sheng]

You had me here.....and I was agreeing

@ Xue Sheng your words: getting a belt in one organization/style and then going to another organization/style and expecting to have that rank honored.
I agree 100% that it should not hold any weight in other styles or even in the same style but under a different school. I don't think that's what they are trying to do with WBBB at all. I don't even think ITF and WTF honor each other. Nor does Kenpo Karate Jeff Speakmen, Tracys or Larry Tatum and all of them trained under the same Master Ed Parker..

but you lost me here....

View attachment 21311

I have read through this discussion and I do not think anyone was being trollish. They may not have agreed, they may have had a differing opinion than you but I do not think anyone was being a troll or casting aspersions on your school or telling you to stop using WBBB....People do not always agree and if you put something out there, a video for example, expect it to be critiqued... if you can't handle disagreement or critique...don't put it out there.....

 

[JR 137]

@ScorpionShawn other than googling someone to verify black belt status, what’s the point? I’m just really struggling to figure out why. It’s one thing if that registered rank is recognized by a significant number of people if the student were to train elsewhere for whatever reason, but that just doesn’t seem to be the case.

Wouldn’t you posting the names and ranks of students on your own website do the same thing? Wouldn’t it actually skip a step if a CI from another school wanted to verify a prospective student’s rank AND the credentials and/or legitimacy of the person granting that rank? I’ve seen a few dojos that post active black belts names and ranks, along with former members’ names and ranks. If you’ve got a website already, why not do this instead and skip the middleman?

Just trying to make sense of it, nothing more.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

@ScorpionShawn other than googling someone to verify black belt status, what’s the point? I’m just really struggling to figure out why. It’s one thing if that registered rank is recognized by a significant number of people if the student were to train elsewhere for whatever reason, but that just doesn’t seem to be the case.

Wouldn’t you posting the names and ranks of students on your own website do the same thing? Wouldn’t it actually skip a step if a CI from another school wanted to verify a prospective student’s rank AND the credentials and/or legitimacy of the person granting that rank? I’ve seen a few dojos that post active black belts names and ranks, along with former members’ names and ranks. If you’ve got a website already, why not do this instead and skip the middleman?

Just trying to make sense of it, nothing more.

Agreed.

Here's my take. I'm an independent program, no longer affiliated with any organization (two in my primary art have invited me). I actually prefer that. That being the case, though, ranks I confer mean little outside my school. With instructors in my primary art who actually know me, those ranks might mean something (though not what they mean at my school). I would expect other instructors within NGA to simply start my students over at white belt, because they couldn't be sure what my ranks mean compared to their own.

So, what good would it do to have them registered somewhere, even if that somewhere was some sort of highly recognized record-keeper? All that would do is certify that someone actually got that rank from me. You know, that rank that doesn't really translate to anywhere else.

 

[Michele123]

I can think of one instance where a record keeping might be useful. In Hollywood. You have someone claiming martial arts credentials in a movie. You want to know if he really holds those ranks. Having a legitimate and reliable record source might be useful in that scenario.

I can’t see any other place it would be useful.


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[Dirty Dog]

I can think of one instance where a record keeping might be useful. In Hollywood. You have someone claiming martial arts credentials in a movie. You want to know if he really holds those ranks. Having a legitimate and reliable record source might be useful in that scenario.

I can’t see any other place it would be useful.

That IS the issue. Legitimacy. When you're talking about some place that will register any rank for anyone, for a fee, their claim to legitimacy is.... suspect.
Why waste time training, when all you need to do is write a check and *poof*, you're a 27th Dan Great Grand Master Soke?

 

[Tez3]

Posting in red is not eye friendly.

 

[ScorpionShawn]

Agreed.

Here's my take. I'm an independent program, no longer affiliated with any organization (two in my primary art have invited me). I actually prefer that. That being the case, though, ranks I confer mean little outside my school. With instructors in my primary art who actually know me, those ranks might mean something (though not what they mean at my school). I would expect other instructors within NGA to simply start my students over at white belt, because they couldn't be sure what my ranks mean compared to their own.

So, what good would it do to have them registered somewhere, even if that somewhere was some sort of highly recognized record-keeper? All that would do is certify that someone actually got that rank from me. You know, that rank that doesn't really translate to anywhere else.

No one says that i know of that anyone in any other school has to honor a black belt from WBBB. In fact I also train in Haidong Gumdo... as a white belt!

That IS the issue. Legitimacy. When you're talking about some place that will register any rank for anyone, for a fee, their claim to legitimacy is.... suspect.
Why waste time training, when all you need to do is write a check and *poof*, you're a 27th Dan Great Grand Master Soke?

People can say that about all Organizations... I respect the WTF but some people dont.

 

[pdg]

That IS the issue. Legitimacy. When you're talking about some place that will register any rank for anyone, for a fee, their claim to legitimacy is.... suspect.
Why waste time training, when all you need to do is write a check and *poof*, you're a 27th Dan Great Grand Master Soke?

People can say that about all Organizations... I respect the WTF but some people dont.

Well, people can say it about other organisations, but it wouldn't be the same.

To use your particular example - WT (hasn't been WTF for a while) doesn't issue rank, it's a sports body.

That video, I'm not even going to start...

A KKW black belt rank isn't something I can register for by making a payment, but apparently I can get a confirmation certificate from the WBBB.

A KKW dan dank isn't recognised as anything in any other art (reputedly there's a reciprocal recognition agreement 'twixt KKW and some ITF for competition purposes). Exactly as a 'karate' or 'kung fu' rank isn't recognised by the ITF.

I can't see the point myself - but if you can, for you, great - crack on.

Doesn't by itself legitimise your rank to me though.

 

[ScorpionShawn]

ROFL I keep hearing people say "I dont recognized your wbbb rank" ok... so then why care?
Also I still dont understand why anyone still thinks that any organization should be honored anywhere outside of itself? and if that is true... again if your not into the WBBB why care?

 

[pdg]

I appear to care less than you do - you joined specifically to drag up a thread that everyone else forgot about 3 years in an attempt to defend the 'organisation', and haven't contributed to any other discussion...

So, here we go, here's why I think it's a pointless endeavour:

The WBBB as far as I can see isn't an art, or a training programme, it's essentially a database that you can pay to be listed on.

As you've agreed yourself, any rank isn't recognised outside of it's own art.

Each system has it's own record keeping system, you can make enquiries, confirm details - so what purpose does WBBB serve?

If/when I get a dan rank from the ITF, it's recognised in the ITF and essentially nowhere else. If that organisation disappears, I no longer have a rank so there's no need to verify it - so what purpose does WBBB serve?

I could start my own system, issue black belts. Someone could phone/email me to verify I issued that rank. If I give up and take the system with me that rank means nothing - or I could pass it to one of my senior students and you can check with them - so what purpose does WBBB serve?


Given all that, and all you've said, and all everyone else has said - the only purpose I see it serving is getting an extra certificate to frame.

If you need that to validate yourself to yourself, fine.

 

[ScorpionShawn]

People spending so much time to say... what purpose does WBBB serve? Then I answer it omg like how many times now?
Just seems like trolling to me.
forgot to use red text in the last reply enjoy

 

[Michele123]

People spending so much time to say... what purpose does WBBB serve? Then I answer it omg like how many times now?
Just seems like trolling to me.
forgot to use red text in the last reply enjoy

You have repeatedly said it’s for record keeping. People keep asking what the point of record keeping is. Especially when you started out by saying it was for if your school disappeared. So folks here pointed out that if your school disappeared, the rank would be worthless because no other school accepts outside ranks. Then you kept harping on the record keeping aspect and the folks here pointed out that if a school still exists, the records are still accessible without the WBBB. So yes, you’ve answered several times that it is for record keeping. But people want here want to know what the point of that record keeping is? If the school that issued the black belt still exists, the records still exist at that schools, this no need for outside record keeping. If the school that issued the black belt no longer exists, yes the records are probably gone but so is the value of that black belt. It doesn’t matter anymore. So, if you can explain WHY having records after a school goes defunct matter, than maybe the conversation can move on.

I tried to suggest one place that I thought basic, external, record keeping could be helpful (but that would only work if the record keeping place had extensive checks to verify all ranks before adding them to the record, which many here have explained WBBB doesn’t do). But even that is kind of a superfluous use.


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