Won-Hyo technical question

[white belt]

TKD Warrior,

I was referencing knee injuries from an overzealous training partner. Attacks to the knee. Not attacks with the knee. As far as the wrestler goes, did you get a rematch? Sounds tenacious.

white belt

 

[TkdWarrior]

lol oh i got it now...well i hav very good training partners so never had any sort(serious) of injury, the match was with my freind so i can any numbers of rematches as i wished(till he wins )
but wat i learnt while sprawling don't knee the wrestler n as somebody already had thread about "Distance is ur freind" i started believing in this from that moment it's a nice experience...
-TkdWarrior-

 

[fissure]

The comment about WTF TKD focusing too much on sparring is right as far as I am concerned too. My teacher bucks the trend and keeps healthy forms focus with the sparring training for which I am grateful. I have seen the trophy chasing focus really ruin some potentially good programs at other schools. Too much of any one thing throws development out of balance for me. I feel the Olympics are fine and all, but, I think TKD will suffer if proper focus isn't regained.

Sparring, self defense, tech, application and the art in and of itself should always compliment each other in a well taught system. I agree most WTF dojang forsake Martial Arts for Martial Sport.
This at first glance helped TKD. None can argue TKD's rapid rise. It has out paced all other MAs in outright growth. As such the WTF's goal was accomplished. On further inspection however the lure of Olympic greatness has for most become the sole purpose and benefit of TKD. In the long run this will kill the Martial Art of TKD.
I realize that for many (myself included) this situation is troubling. However my personal training is as it was 20+ yrs ago, if others are only interested in sport how does that really matter to me?
It can be hard not to come down on commercial sport TKD schools, but you have to remember that 99% of trainees don't really want to train in combat based MA. Just because this is your goal or mine, the fact that it is not their interest can't be your concern.

 

[fissure]

Myself and other have had this type of disscusion in the Karate forum in the past. It seems to be a problem that affects all MAs, not only TKD.
Botom line is you have to get kids in class to pay the bills. The lure of trophies does this quit well.
This fact may be sad, but it is totally true.

 

[white belt]

This is for The Sensei, Bagatha, Damian, TKD Warrior, Marginal, Fissure and anyone else interested.

I inquired about the description of some basic moves in Won-Hyo to make sure semantics / names weren't obscuring the verbal description for me. The ITF name for Inner Forearm Circular Block is called an Inward Forearm Block in my system / school (WTF). This difference in names, for the same block, could have caused me to assume you were speaking of something else. I don't like to assume and I apologize for not being familiar with your set of terminology. If my inquiries were out of line somehow, again my apologies.

It is my understanding that preceding the step leading to move 19 draws the feet in close proximity of each other sometimes called natural or walking stance in some systems. Initiating any techniques from this stance in hyung, tul, etc. is really good training for mimicing being relaxed in everyday life and not in a ready battle position. Training to respond to an attack when not prepared stance wise. This makes sense in the form when thinking of it as punctuation between attackers. I don't see this much at all in my forms and it strikes me as very good practice for real life. What I am saying is most problems arise when not in a fighting stance outside the Do Jang. I kind of like this concept myself.

The sequence The Sensei asked about is a defense against a right arm pull / grab to your left arm mainly at the wrist area. Rather than meeting force w/force the left foot steps with / towards the attackers energy. The defenders left hand pulls back at their own wrist while the rotating knife hand edge goes around the thumb side of their wrist and the hand then grabs their wrist / forearm while breaking the attackers initial grasp. The thumb can be pressed into Pericardium 6 to secure a firm hold. Doing all this rotates the attackers arm so that their elbow points down and palm up if continuing a chambering motion to your hip. The blocking arm is then brought up with the thumb knuckle inner wrist bone area as a striking / pressing /raking tool to the attackers elbow area. If you go above your own elbow about one thumbs width, you will find triple heater 10 at the triceps attachment to the elbow. The lateral sideways raking of this point will cause the arm to straighten somewhat and should be held momentarily to control the attacker for the front snap kick to their Liver 13 point at the 11th rib area. A strike to this area, in general, hits the liver or spleen directly. The temporary securing of the arm while kicking to this area increases the likelihood for internal organ damage much like impact increases with two objects traveling towards each other. Once the kicking foot is returning, the grip on the attackers wrist is released and the right arm continues it's blocking trajectory while pressed against the attackers arm effectively sweeping it across his centerline, across the front of his body and aside. This serves two main purposes. First it turns his torso CCW and causes not just his right arm to be cleared from immediately reattacking, but, it also turns his left hand and left hip / leg away preventing an immediate kick from that leg. The right leg is where he will be placing most of his weight momentarily due to his hips reflexing backward so good chance of no immediate kick threat there either. Second the target/s for the punch are now wide open momentarily. That chambered left hand, which released his right arm so it could be swept away, is now slammed in reverse punch fashion as your body falls forward from the right front snap kick. The point spleen 21, which is also just around the back of Liver 13 still on rib 11, can be fully exploited. It is about halfway between the armpit and hip bone. A good old fashioned blow to the kidney will work just as well if he is really turned by the block. If all this makes solid contact and he is still standing I myself would run!

I posted earlier on this thread on the kick punch mehanics and they gel nicely with this apps. explanation. I have very similar moves in my Pal Gae hyung. We have more in common with ITF hyung than maybe first thought.

The position of forms being impractical is both true and untrue depending on their usage and understanding. I understand more in a general sense where some of you were coming from. If I stopped at just thinking there was only a punch or kick coming at me on this series of moves, I would definately be on the near useless side of the fence too. When Damian mentioned the necessity of having a live partner to practice with or the deeper apps. aren't much better, that too I agree with. But, I feel that once having done so, the solo practice is more enhanced and then more constructive.

If you are tempted to ignore or discard my explanation, due to my prior poor attempts at humor, I understand. For those of you that try this, please don't think me rude or condescending for suggesting caution for your training partner. That is a very powerful form you guys have. I'm impressed.

Bagatha, if you look at the sparring against punchers thread, and read my explanation, you will notice how much this Won-Hyo forms app. has in common with my sparring tactics. If you make it hard for your opponent to use all of his weapons by crossing up his stance, he has a harder time dealing with your assault and delvering his. When your Instructor mentioned how forms help sparring, maybe he is meaning on a positional level? Just a thought.

respectfully,
white belt

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by white belt

.. ..a defense against a right arm pull / grab to your left arm mainly at the wrist area....... Training to respond to an attack when not prepared stance wise. This makes sense in the form when thinking of it as punctuation between attackers. ....

I shall respectfully defer any comment on forms/ patterns to the respected pros here. :asian:

As for defence against a right arm pull/ grap to your left, how often does such attack occurs where the attacker stands at a distance, leans forward to grap your arm and leaving himself wide open for you to kick his spleen out? If that ever occurs then have a ball and kick a hole in him as you have described.

What if he is already close to you or has moved close to you where kicking is extremely hard? I suppose you can step back to chamber a side kick to trash his knee. If he is in front (or side then turn to face), then straight punch to the face, jab to the eyes, long fist to the throat, upper cut (to the jaw or straight to the solar plexus), swimming elbow, horizontal elbow, rising elbow, stomp on the insteps, knee to the groin, palm/closed fist to the groin.

If he swings to the back while holding onto your left arm, then back elbow, reverse headbutt ( be prepared to be cut by his teeth), palm/fist back strike to the groin, stomping the insteps, backfist to the temper , backkick to the knee or higher

Attacks seldom come in single, the moment you are grapped you have not 1/2 sec to lose. Neutralize instantly or suffer the immediate follow-up. NO TIME TO LOSE!

Sorry for taking the discussion away from 'realistic applicatioon of TKD forms', sooo I am shutting up and sitting down now.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by fissure

Myself and other have had this type of disscusion in the Karate forum in the past. It seems to be a problem that affects all MAs, not only TKD.
Botom line is you have to get kids in class to pay the bills. The lure of trophies does this quit well.
This fact may be sad, but it is totally true.

It is simply not realistic to emphasize the combat side of TKD when you are teaching kids. You wouldn't want your kids to learn to maim and destruct before they are mature enough.

Besides, you can pursue that in the self defence part of TKD. But seriously, being able to kill and maim, is not what it all cracks up to be. It is like the psycho greasing his guns all the time, hoping to defend his house againts an invasion. Not that I am some psycho, lol. But that really gets boring real fast. Seriously, how many ways can you seriously injure an attacker? And do you really look forward to that?

So, honestly, there is nothing wrong with the sport and performance side of TKD or any MA for that matter. Afterall, as you said, 99% of the students are not into combat fighting. There is nothing stopping those who want to pursue the deadlier side of TKD.

 

[fissure]

I'm having trouble finding the relevance of quoting my post in your last statement.
Perhaps you meant to quote the one I made prior? Either way you seem to be confused.

It can be hard not to come down on commercial sport TKD schools, but you have to remember that 99% of trainees don't really want to train in combat based MA. Just because this is your goal or mine, the fact that it is not their interest can't be your concern.

This is what I said concerning intense training, it's seems to have the same tone as your last posting.

 

[KennethKu]

Clicked the Quote button of the wrong post of yours. Sorry . :asian:

 

[white belt]

Kenneth,

Thanks for the reply. I agree wholeheartedly about not teaching kids maiming techniques. This discussion is in line with why the original Oriental pioneers altered their forms for generic phys. ed. for school children.

The application concerning Won-Hyo moves / reacts pretty fast when tried. I stacked it against other common responses in the Do Jang. As to what to do if this or that happens, that's why there are plenty of forms with different apps. I would wager. The kick works, with a fairly good chamber, and it applies pressure to the shoulder joint during the split second of arm retention. I have seen come alongs done to people as an initial response. Some were pretty effective when the user had a little element of surprise. I understand all moves have their inapropriate applications at times, even when really well planned.

Thanks for the feedback,
white belt