Won-Hyo technical question

[white belt]

Well, I can't say I am surprised. It was a frustrating experience for me too when the truth showed up. Bagatha, you are right about the limb needing to be near for proper manipulation. The chambering I am taught DOES bring the hands close to the body. The left elbow is straight when low then BENDS as it is chambered up by the shoulder with the other hand. In Pancrase it is called the Universal Block at it's inception position due to the versatility of the, in this case, left hands ability to go into the outward or high block from the shoulder point. Those are whole different apps. at that point. Think about it guys, the description of the hands defelecting a kick is used in TKD sparring ,Karate and various forms of kickboxing. It is a natural response. The lead foot can be lifted up as well to use the shin for blocking a kick lower than groin level before putting it back down such as in MT, etc.

As far as bashing any MMA. No way. I am a supporter of the UFC, etc. I partially credit the pioneers in those forums for causing traditionalists to wake up. Read up on Gichin Funakoshi and Jigoro Kano. The Do concept of their art's premise was to bring the brutal battlefield moves to the masses for health cultivation. They were very open about how they took the details out of the moves for safety reasons. They and others then taught a generic version of much more potentially dangerous techniques, such as the low block, to make the growth appealing to the average joe. Even today you see this mentality now run amok with the McDojo buy a belt craze. It has gotten out of hand and far from what the Do advocates intended. Those moves are there if you look. The key is looking at the FIRST part (chambering motion) of any basic or move to find it's true essence.

As far as my sharing deadly techs., would you teach a beginner in Judo a choke or sleeper hold the first day? Of course not. A responsible teacher teaches you to fall and some less dangerous beginner stuff. I know that Dim Mak stuff is available out the wazoo, but, it doesn't mean I should hand out harmful info. like Halloween candy.

I requested the Won Hyo info. in sincerity and now it appears that is somehow an indicator that I can't help think you guys through a possible obscured app.? I don't have all the patterns ever developed. I am based in the Pal Gaes. I then SHOULD ask questions to give the circumstance the respect it deserves. Bagatha at least was kind enough and we both HAVE low blocks.

Sorry if I upset your applecarts, but, you were commenting on having no apples. I believe you do if you look harder and put your emotions aside. That's all. I know men who have studied the same patterns I have for 20-25 yrs. It was a bitter pill to swallow, but, they are now seeing past the beginning apps. taught them.

Have a good day all,
white belt

 

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by white belt


As far as my sharing deadly techs., would you teach a beginner in Judo a choke or sleeper hold the first day? Of course not. A responsible teacher teaches you to fall and some less dangerous beginner stuff. I know that Dim Mak stuff is available out the wazoo, but, it doesn't mean I should hand out harmful info. like Halloween candy.

Now that statement was pure arrogance, and since you already know where I stand on that particular issue you realize that by insulting our experiences without defining your own, you lose substantial credibility with me. Let me cut it to you clearly, WTF is a completely different style then ITF, we share a name but few common grounds. We do both have a low block but they do not look the same. They are not performed the same, and obviously the goal is not the same. Therefore how can your interpretation apply to every martial art out there? It cant. The founder of our style wrote everything down for us, plus participated in the creation of videos so not only can we read the proper mechanics of a technique, we can also watch a proper technique. There is no guessing, we dont have to make up stories about "what if" it is cut and dry, it is universal(within ITF) and it is all logical.

If that was an example of one of your deadly techniques then Im not worried about missing much.

 

[Damian Mavis]

"It was a frustrating experience for me too when the truth showed up."

Heh, ok I'll just repost my last question.

White belt, what are your sources for such an interesting interpretation of those movements. Or is that a personal interpretation on your part?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Marginal]

Originally posted by white belt


As far as my sharing deadly techs., would you teach a beginner in Judo a choke or sleeper hold the first day?

To be fair, anyone on the street knows that choking someone will kill them if done lng enough.

I know that Dim Mak stuff is available out the wazoo, but, it doesn't mean I should hand out harmful info. like Halloween candy.

Personally I find it more interesting that experienced instructors are willing to publicly discuss this subject, but you cannot.

I requested the Won Hyo info. in sincerity and now it appears that is somehow an indicator that I can't help think you guys through a possible obscured app.?

Um, you were launching into lengthy lectures on the subject well before I asked my questions. One would assume you had some idea what you were talking about before you'd resuest info on the pattern you'd been discussing at such length. Regardless, it's not relevant to my question. (Look at my first post. I even quoted the part of your post I was wondering about.)

I then SHOULD ask questions to give the circumstance the respect it deserves.

So you were just being disrespectful before? That doesn't make much sense.

Sorry if I upset your applecarts, but, you were commenting on having no apples.

No, I was asking how a two handed submission hold can be a good position to be punching and kicking your opponent from. (But then, I'd also like to know why the opponent's supposed to be rendered immobile in that case.) I was giving you a chance to actually provide some info that'd allow this discussion to progress. The fact that you elected to say nothing is rather telling.

I know men who have studied the same patterns I have for 20-25 yrs. It was a bitter pill to swallow, but, they are now seeing past the beginning apps. taught them.

There's nothing bitter or otherwise to swallow. You've provided no information whatsoever.

 

[white belt]

Late lunch break and more fun with e-mail I see.

First off there is nothing arrogant about being honest and following basic guidelines. There are people who see these chat rooms who may not have your respect for others safety. Now why not make them work for the info. we could so readily dish out? If they do work hard, maybe the process of such will help them develop your level of empathy. Not so snooty really. The higher ups in our art forms don't want their students to be malicious is all. If I try to be a good student by following that premise, and am found arrogant, well, ok then.

My source, Damian, is many years of practice and verification by a Korean Master who is a bit older. He used many of the older versions of our "modified" moves / basics to teach soldiers how to rapidly destroy another and keep moving on to their objectives.

The encyclopedia by the late Grandmaster Choi is wonderful. I have similar collections of basics and patterns by different stylists, Richard Chun, Mas Oyama, etc. These are meant to perpetuate the "Do" applications of the older "Jutsu" moves so that us common folk might reap the mental and physical health benefits of the moves. This is why the modern forms don't translate well into real world, spontaneous self defense. It's not that the founders did not know what they were doing. Not by a long shot. The genious of what they did was to bring a form of self cultivation to the masses without the sharp edges. I see many people helped by this. I am just simply saying that the moves are deeper in context to hand to hand apps. than most realize and this is why some practitioners don't give much weight to their patterns usefullness if physically attacked. The "Jutsu" methods were trimmed by Gichin Funakoshi to teach as a part of the Japanese phys. ed. program. It is documented that Mr. Funakoshi taught General Choi his system up to at least 1st Dan. General Choi added some elements of his other martial art background, but, kept the "Do" aspect prevalent so he to could help his countrymen see the benefits much like the Japanese version. Pretty admirable stuff to say the least. Now how many people would show interest in excercise that injures so easily as the older "Jutsu". Not near as many that can have some extra cushion against permanent physical damage. Judo did away with leg submissions long ago because of injuries being so common. How many people from all walks of life do Tae Bo as compared to full contact kickboxing? The old masters knew that the forms and their apps. followed the same psychology. Not everyone can handle it and some should not be given it.

Look at the low block I shared and work it with a partner or don't. No biggy. But, at least now I have made a sincere effort to connect forms info. with some obviously hard working and proud TKD people. No harm done, right?

If any of you like good studies on such subjects, take a look at "Japan's Ultimate Martial Art" by the accomplished Darrell Max Craig. He also has a book out titled "Shihan-Te. The Bunkai of Karate Kata.". If you look real close you will see some disturbingly familiar techniques.

Good day,
white belt

 

[white belt]

Marginal,

Submarginal here. Thank you for throwing your apple cart at me. As you can tell, I need the exercise. Cup didn't help much. Need ice. Ow.

If you can show a little patience, I will get around to looking at the forms app. you questioned. If not interested, I understand. Try plugging in the mechanics of the kick / punch part I posted after I get some more ice.

Thanks for your reply,
white belt

 

[Damian Mavis]

Your source was a Master of WTF TKD?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Marginal]

Originally posted by white belt


If you can show a little patience, I will get around to looking at the forms app. you questioned.

Thing is, you don't need to. All you have to do is answer the question I posed. Does a circular block ending up as a submission take two hands to apply?

If so, how are you punching someone while applying it? Why aren't they punching you in the face etc while you're dinking around with their leg?

None of that's even treading into "dangerous" territory, so I'm not sure why a response needs to take long at all. First part can be answered with a yes or no after all. Doesn't require rambles about applecarts at all.

 

[Bagatha]

He cant answer you, he is in a completely different style, it would be like one of us going to the kung-fu section and trying to give them advice on how to do their patterns. I would be irritated if he tried.

 

[Marginal]

Yeah, so I've heard. On the other hand, since he already spent quite a bit of time expounding on the three moves in question, and their hidden power upon his entry into the thread... He might as well finish the thought.

 

[white belt]

Damien,

That is correct. From Moo Duk Kwan. The part of the kwan that went with the other kwans and left Tang Soo Do. I'm sure you know the history. This man is in his 60's and he has three other brothers who are masters. They are phenomonal. I consider it a privilege to be able to ask him about the matters I have tried to share, and held suspicions about, for years. Don't you at least find it strange that the forms, as taught, don't fit real combat very well? That is no coincidence. The old masters were highly intelligent.

I think this WTF, ITF, USTU, etc. stuff has gone so far as to blind some good people. Organization is fine, but, it obviously has factionalized to a point where knowledge takes a back seat to banners at times.

Too bad about the turn this thread has taken. I will admit first hand that I am not intelligent enough to have made up the tech. info. I have shared. The techniques are already there for the discovering. If I discover gold, it helps me little to try and convince others that I myself made it. It also doesn't matter which side of the mountain I found it on, or does it?

Respectfully,
white belt

 

[Damian Mavis]

Well, I like ITF and all but I am part of several different martial arts organisations and am not defending ITF style for the sake of loyalty. What I still disagree with (assuming you are correct in your and your Masters interpretation) is that forms are a bad way to learn those manouvers. If you are correct about that move being a submission type move I don't think practicing it as a pattern will train you to use it effectively.

I take submission grappling and BJJ, the only way I learn to submit my opponents with a particular technique is by actually trying them at full power and speed on another person that is resisting me at full power and speed. The thing I like about submission grappling is that you can safely (most of the time) use full strength while "sparring"... unlike TKD where if I don't want to hurt my training partner I pull my kicks and use partial force.

See my point of view? Whether your move is a simple block or an intricate submission I just don't think practicing them as patterns is going to help you fight for your life effectively.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Bagatha]

Well said.

 

[white belt]

Damian,

I agree! A partner who works with you on the move is much better prep. It is like the difference between shadowboxing and a good sparring partner. Shadowboxing only gives you part of the skill possible that can develop, but, it can still do some damage. Not as much, but, some.

My GM. has told me that each military interpretation of the moves, in the forms, were practiced THOUSANDS of times WITH a partner at his lessons. Sometimes a whole session was spent on one move for hours on end. Considering the potential apps, that had to be tough on the body even with control. Imagine being forced to do a 1000 cross body armbars back and forth with a partner. Even with control, my arm / elbow would be cooked! Back in the day, before he came to the states, he was required to do this by his teacher. Even with their seriousness, there were still some unfortunate injuries in practice. Taking turns trapping the kick, like I described, and doing a lock on the leg, while the kicker is still standing on one leg, would start to suck well before a 1000 for me! I like training, but, I'm just not that tough. Now mind you this type of training was happening back in the 1950's while the factions / kwans / organizations were still pretty much getting along. This knowledge couldn't have been isolated to one kwan! It defies logic.

BJJ, Submissions, all good grappling helped spark a new interest in stronger self defense. It also made SOME people more aware that something was / is wrong with the "Do" version of the forms. I have seen way more people drop out of the grappling classes around here just because it makes them sore, is too hard, etc. They then show up at McDojangs and pretend to be fierce because it is all they can handle. Funakoshi, Kano, Choi they were pretty much on the mark about Joe Public. Have you noticed this big trend of 45 minute classes that is happening all over? Used to be all places had 1.5-2 hr classes. The forms apps. scare off some TKD guys if I am not careful when showing them. It's a shame, but, I have my limits too of course. 1000 leg locks? Not yet!

Have you checked out Matt Furey's Combat Wrestling stuff? I have been testing it out periodically over the last couple of years and it has helped my gas tank on the ground and doing TKD. Karl Gotch and Farmer Burns are / were some pretty interesting men.

Time to turn in,
white belt

 

[fissure]

This type of application theory has been going on in Japanese Karate circles for years. I see it is now making its way into TKD.
Both individual tech. and whole poomse are sifted through to find "deeper" meaning. i.e. the block is as it appears on its face, or the chamber of the block IS the block and the rest of the motion represents any number of things, depending on who you are talking to.
In the second instance forms become whatever the proponent wants them to be - blocks are joint locks, turns are throws, single motions turn into multiple counters and attacks.
The series of knife hand blocks in Balsek (Bassai/Passai) are transformed into a complex series of traps and counters.
The argument is that these are the "true" meanings and applications of forms and tech. Since no one is still around who was present for the creation of these movements-it is impossible to know. As such any application that is thrown out could be the right one, or it could be useless crap! I've seen some that looked like they would hold water, and others that where a definite forced fit.
Bottom line is these discussions have been going on forever in other striking arts, TKD, at least WTF TKD, has been too focused on competition to bother with much of anything else.
None of this stuff is new or revolutionary. Don't let any one try to dazzle you with this much debated "knowledge".

 

[white belt]

Thanks fissure,

I have seen both sides of the coin too. When applied, some don't hold up. The ones I catch and ask my GM. about, I don't have to get out two words or 1/4 of the way thru the demo. and he either shuts me down or gives me the affirmative. This may seem sneaky (and risky) on my part, but, I have taken ones that have passed the "live" test before approaching him and mixed these in with a couple of "forced fits". Again, before I finish the move, he knows where I am going and he always gives me the "good" or "bad" answer to the appropriate technique application. He hasn't thrown me a bone yet in over two dozen moves. Very strange.

Some TKD people are real hard on anyone who brings up Mr. Funakoshi, etc. The countries had to have traded martial knowledge. I am pleased with learning period. If an ITF or WTF or a Karate stylist has some useful info., I am not going to let knowledge take a backseat to politics. If my GM. doesn't approve of something from an outside source, I keep it out his Do Jang out of respect.

The comment about WTF TKD focusing too much on sparring is right as far as I am concerned too. My teacher bucks the trend and keeps healthy forms focus with the sparring training for which I am grateful. I have seen the trophy chasing focus really ruin some potentially good programs at other schools. Too much of any one thing throws development out of balance for me. I feel the Olympics are fine and all, but, I think TKD will suffer if proper focus isn't regained.

I agree that there is a mixed bag out there and I won't practice anything unless there is sufficient reason.

Thanks again,
white belt

 

[TkdWarrior]

wow heavy words exchanged in with good description from both sides who won actualllly ? me lol
u know for all this time i actually thought that forms r for balance, stability n learning movements of actual techniques.
with little head work u can make those forms as a technique in fight, with little devising of form tech u can use it as more advanced set of techinques too.
as far as blocking thing i figured out one thing that Leg is more powerful than hand in an average circumstances(shall i claim "Eureka"??) so blocking a kick with a hand with normaly end up having broken hand(arm) when u block kick in any of case u never meet force with force u actually shut the force from where it starts(the base).
the kind of explaination Mr White Belt gave i hav learnt that in my starting days of learning using it as a violent(as u put it) but i learnt that this can be done by my teacher only n doin that against him will hav me handicapped forever so comes the headache part of shutting reaaaaaaal force with damn good speed....
anyways i come from ITF background, forms r not just for showy woyy stuff, but it didn't contain "those deadly hidden messages" as u say it...
from wat i learnt in taiji form is that at least there's 5 diffeent techniques revised or taken wholely... its not big deals about secrets(and it's very very bad way of letting ur secrets out in Internet world, who knows damian, bagatha or me or kenneth might be thinking of taking over the world )
-TkdWarrior-

 

[TkdWarrior]

well tho watever i said in last post was umm err...may be.. lol
but i respect Mr White belts efforts for saving TKD it's more than kick or olympic :asian:
sshhh don't tell anyone my plans to learn secrets n taking over the world :rofl: :rofl: j/k
-TkdWarrior-

 

[white belt]

Well, there goes the free world! Finally a REAL sense of humor! Leg locks are known to be hard to gauge is one of my main points. Knees can be slow to warn the nervous system. Any TKDists have any knee experiences out there with grappling?

white belt

 

[TkdWarrior]

<! Leg locks are known to be hard to gauge is one of my main points>
this is one point i didn't get it...mind explaing

<Any TKDists have any knee experiences out there with grappling?>
My bad...that opens up my old wounds
don't knee any wrestler i remember once i was against my freind wrestler who was lots of manuvering things just shoot in my legs, i just went low n opened up my stance(very bad move) took care of his hands n tried to sprawl n i dunno wat comes over me i just kneed him(thought i had good shot at his face(bad move again))
before i knew i was down ...n had to tap out
-TkdWarrior-