Women’s versus men’s self-defense?

[GreenieMeanie]

It seems to me that men best avoid violence through projecting confidence and not challenging other men, Intentionally or unintentionally. There are men who look for reasons to fight other men, but you don’t see this so much with women. Women on the other hand are often seen as prey by default, underestimated, and quick to kindness in the face of clear boundary violations. Thus, women have to project an aura of “don’t f— with me” when they feel threatened, and be prepared to immediately stab the man in critical areas if necessary. I’ve heard that an issue with women‘s self-defense classes, is that they don’t actually give women a taste of the extreme violence they’ll face, and then they’re completely caught off guard when a real sexual assault or rape happens.

What would you say are the key differences between women’s and men’s self defense?

 

[isshinryuronin]

What would you say are the key differences between women’s and men’s self defense?

1. The great majority of women are not as strong as men.
2. This results in fewer effective target options.
3. The great majority of women are by nature less inclined to physical violence.
4. The great majority of women have less experience in harder physical contact (sport/horseplay).
5. A man will be less cautious attacking a woman.

These five statements I believe must influence all further discussion on the subject including, but not limited to, training, tactics, techniques, execution.

 

[Steve]

Once upon a time, there were some women in this forum, but I think they all got tired of a bunch of dudes mansplaining women’s self defense to them.

Seriously, the threads were pretty bad. I’m looking forward to seeing how this one goes. Better, hopefully.

A few of the key differences that I recall from female experts in women’s self defense are that you are much more likely to be defending yourself from someone you know. It’s likely to be some kind of abuse or sexual assault, and that it’s a lot more complex than staving off a random attacker (though that can be a real problem, too).

That’s a gross oversimplification, but I really think going back and reading some of the earlier threads from several years ago on the topic would be interesting.

 

[Steve]

Self Defense for Women

What do you think is the best form of martial arts for women? One that can help them with assaults?

www.martialtalk.com

A good thread with some actual women sharing their thoughts. Just before this one picks up steam, a good place to start.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Self Defense for Women

What do you think is the best form of martial arts for women? One that can help them with assaults?

www.martialtalk.com

A good thread with some actual women sharing their thoughts. Just before this one picks up steam, a good place to start.

Another “what‘s the best martial art?” thread

All jokes aside, I’m sure there’s plenty of good stuff there.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Self Defense for Women

What do you think is the best form of martial arts for women? One that can help them with assaults?

www.martialtalk.com

A good thread with some actual women sharing their thoughts. Just before this one picks up steam, a good place to start.

I skimmed through the thread. The amount of useful Information there is limited, mostly an 11 page argument about law, martial arts philosophy, and carrying guns. Perhaps this thread will generate more practical no-nonsense Information, less academic discussion about martial arts systems, the legal difference between harassment and assault, or people horrified by the carrying of guns or knives.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

1. The great majority of women are not as strong as men.
2. This results in fewer effective target options.
3. The great majority of women are by nature less inclined to physical violence.
4. The great majority of women have less experience in harder physical contact (sport/horseplay).
5. A man will be less cautious attacking a woman.

These five statements I believe must influence all further discussion on the subject including, but not limited to, training, tactics, techniques, execution.

Once you account for different body types, people’s default fighting styles—I find there’s not much fundamental difference between how men and women ought to handle the fight. You either successfully counter-ambush, or you don’t. Men are better suited for handling the duel, if they fail the counter-ambush.

Can you expand upon the 5th statement?

 

[Mallic]

It seems to me that men best avoid violence through projecting confidence and not challenging other men, Intentionally or unintentionally. There are men who look for reasons to fight other men, but you don’t see this so much with women. Women on the other hand are often seen as prey by default, underestimated, and quick to kindness in the face of clear boundary violations. Thus, women have to project an aura of “don’t f— with me” when they feel threatened, and be prepared to immediately stab the man in critical areas if necessary. I’ve heard that an issue with women‘s self-defense classes, is that they don’t actually give women a taste of the extreme violence they’ll face, and then they’re completely caught off guard when a real sexual assault or rape happens.

What would you say are the key differences between women’s and men’s self defense?

Honestly the issue with women's self defence is that a lot of it feels like complete scams and don't actually teach you how to fight to your strengths.

You are correct, women are often seen as weaker prey by a lot of men that is just a sad reality however I would argue that being underestimated is a powerful weapon because it means half the time your target isn't taking you seriously.

So when someone would go 100% against a man, against a woman it's closer to 60-75% whether instinctively or not men generally don't go all out against a woman, at least not right away, with the only exception being if he knows before hand how capable she is in a fight.

Why do you think many of the most successful assassins in history were women? It's because by the time their target realizes how dangerous they are it's already too late.

And I know a lot of women hate the whole "Men=Strong, Women=Agile" dichotomy but when observed at a very fundamental level, it holds weight. Very rarely is a woman going to out muscle a man, it's just not gonna happen, but that doesn't mean they automatically lose against one and I'm sick of seeing women use this as an excuse to not even try.

Can a woman beat a man in a head on fight? Yes....but she's hard limited to outboxing or something of the sort, cause a man can't hurt you if he can't grab you. After that it's a matter of finding a chance to get away or grabbing something to bash his face in.

Remember victory doesn't just come from knocking someone out or worse, it's just as much of a win if your assailant just decides you aren't worth the trouble.

 

[wab25]

I skimmed through the thread. The amount of useful Information there is limited, mostly an 11 page argument about law, martial arts philosophy, and carrying guns. Perhaps this thread will generate more practical no-nonsense Information, less academic discussion about martial arts systems, the legal difference between harassment and assault, or people horrified by the carrying of guns or knives.

So, you want to have a self defense discussion, that does not include discussion of law or the legal difference between harassment and assault???

You do realize that in many places, if a woman is being assaulted she has different options available to her than if she is being harassed? I know of very few places where a person can respond with lethal force for being harassed... while there are many places where a person being assaulted would have the option to legally respond with lethal force.

When talking on a board such as this, where people from all over the world may be reading.... I think it is good to encourage people to research the law, where they are. I think it is good to understand the use of force law, when lethal force can be used and when you need to stop.

If you are teaching a local class, then you need to be the one to do the research, so that you can teach the appropriate points to your class.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Honestly the issue with women's self defence is that a lot of it feels like complete scams and don't actually teach you how to fight to your strengths.

You are correct, women are often seen as weaker prey by a lot of men that is just a sad reality however I would argue that being underestimated is a powerful weapon because it means half the time your target isn't taking you seriously.

So when someone would go 100% against a man, against a woman it's closer to 60-75% whether instinctively or not men generally don't go all out against a woman, at least not right away, with the only exception being if he knows before hand how capable she is in a fight.

Why do you think many of the most successful assassins in history were women? It's because by the time their target realizes how dangerous they are it's already too late.

And I know a lot of women hate the whole "Men=Strong, Women=Agile" dichotomy but when observed at a very fundamental level, it holds weight. Very rarely is a woman going to out muscle a man, it's just not gonna happen, but that doesn't mean they automatically lose against one and I'm sick of seeing women use this as an excuse to not even try.

Can a woman beat a man in a head on fight? Yes....but she's hard limited to outboxing or something of the sort, cause a man can't hurt you if he can't grab you. After that it's a matter of finding a chance to get away or grabbing something to bash his face in.

Remember victory doesn't just come from knocking someone out or worse, it's just as much of a win if your assailant just decides you aren't worth the trouble.

All true.

Honestly the issue with women's self defence is that a lot of it feels like complete scams and don't actually teach you how to fight to your strengths.

You are correct, women are often seen as weaker prey by a lot of men that is just a sad reality however I would argue that being underestimated is a powerful weapon because it means half the time your target isn't taking you seriously.

So when someone would go 100% against a man, against a woman it's closer to 60-75% whether instinctively or not men generally don't go all out against a woman, at least not right away, with the only exception being if he knows before hand how capable she is in a fight.

Why do you think many of the most successful assassins in history were women? It's because by the time their target realizes how dangerous they are it's already too late.

And I know a lot of women hate the whole "Men=Strong, Women=Agile" dichotomy but when observed at a very fundamental level, it holds weight. Very rarely is a woman going to out muscle a man, it's just not gonna happen, but that doesn't mean they automatically lose against one and I'm sick of seeing women use this as an excuse to not even try.

Can a woman beat a man in a head on fight? Yes....but she's hard limited to outboxing or something of the sort, cause a man can't hurt you if he can't grab you. After that it's a matter of finding a chance to get away or grabbing something to bash his face in.

Remember victory doesn't just come from knocking someone out or worse, it's just as much of a win if your assailant just decides you aren't worth the trouble.

All true. However, I would like to keep this discussion focused on the specific kinds of threats women are most likely to face, and the relevant tactical, techniques, and procedures for dealing them, including but not limited to:

—Drink spiking

—Assault or rape by peer, friend, or family

—Stalking

—Anti-surveillance

—When to use hands, OC, and lethal weapons

—Knife sheathe placement

 

[GreenieMeanie]

So, you want to have a self defense discussion, that does not include discussion of law or the legal difference between harassment and assault???

You do realize that in many places, if a woman is being assaulted she has different options available to her than if she is being harassed? I know of very few places where a person can respond with lethal force for being harassed... while there are many places where a person being assaulted would have the option to legally respond with lethal force.

When talking on a board such as this, where people from all over the world may be reading.... I think it is good to encourage people to research the law, where they are. I think it is good to understand the use of force law, when lethal force can be used and when you need to stop.

If you are teaching a local class, then you need to be the one to do the research, so that you can teach the appropriate points to your class.

Yeah, but it don’t want it to go the way of pointless academic and political discussion, like in the other thread.

 

[wab25]

—Knife sheathe placement

Depending on where you are... this could get you into a lot of legal trouble. It may not be legal to even carry a knife. Even where it is legal to carry a knife, there are usually restrictions of fixed blade vs folding, length of the blade, the opening mechanism, what is considered concealed (when do you need a permit to carry it like that), what use are you carrying it for.... All this just to have one with you.

When you actually pull it out to use... it would be very good to understand the legal difference between harassment and assault. It would also be good to understand when you can respond with lethal force.... just assault may not be enough in all areas around the world.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Depending on where you are... this could get you into a lot of legal trouble. It may not be legal to even carry a knife. Even where it is legal to carry a knife, there are usually restrictions of fixed blade vs folding, length of the blade, the opening mechanism, what is considered concealed (when do you need a permit to carry it like that), what use are you carrying it for.... All this just to have one with you.

When you actually pull it out to use... it would be very good to understand the legal difference between harassment and assault. It would also be good to understand when you can respond with lethal force.... just assault may not be enough in all areas around the world.

People who need it will find a way to make it work regardless of the law, as they have throughout human history. I would really appreciate it if we could stay focused on relevant statistics, tactics, techniques, and procedures that are specific to women’s self-defense. The use of force continuum is of course a relevant and significant feature of that conversation.

 

[Mallic]

All true.

All true. However, I would like to keep this discussion focused on the specific kinds of threats women are most likely to face, and the relevant tactical, techniques, and procedures for dealing them, including but not limited to:

—Drink spiking

—Assault or rape by peer, friend, or family

—Stalking

—Anti-surveillance

—When to use hands, OC, and lethal weapons

—Knife sheathe placement

Oooh ok this is where it gets fun.

Personally I say just avoid drinking entirely, I myself don't drink and I've yet to hear a story involving booze that ended positively. If this is something you're unwilling to do, only drink at home and avoid pubs or if you do go out make sure to go in a group and have one person sober at all times to keep an eye on the rest of the group.

With stalking unless you catch them in the act, there's not much you can do as long as it doesn't go beyond simple stalking, I know I know it's sucks but no proof means no real basis.

Same with surveillance, In a world where nothing is truly private anymore, all you can do is deal with it when it shows up acting before that in either case just leaves you looking or being paranoid.

As much as i hate how people hype this martial art up, I must admit in the event of sexual assault Brazilian jiujitsu is a very useful martial art to know, as despite being a purely ground game focused style, where do most SA attempts end up? The ground. I still hold the belief that BJJ is a very situational martial art it just so happens that in SA cases it's a situation that happens in pretty much any scenario you can think of. Just don't let them pin your arms or you are screwed...obviously.

As for knife placement, ok I need you to stick with me on this. Buy a switchblade, a push up bra and a bunch of those cleavage exposing tshirts. They'll never see it coming. No I am not joking, pulling a switchblade from between your boobs is something most attackers won't expect, just play coy and pretend you're into it.

I saved the family one for last, because I'll be honest I have no idea how to stop it from happening since the issue is this is happening by someone you thought you could trust so you don't see it coming until it's too late.

In this case you have 2 options, If you know there are people around then claw and scream and bite like hell and make as much of a commotion as you can someone is going to hear and see what's going on. If you know you're alone, then this is the only thing I can think of...bide your time, let him think he's broken you and wait.

If he lets down his guard if you have a knife on you, use that chance to shove it in there neck, if not then make sure you have a voice recorder for next time(and yes with these types there WILL be a next time) and get him to admit what he's doing to you so he has nowhere to run.

I must make clear that this is in the absolute worst case scenario and if you're lucky it won't come to that, but if it does the important thing is that you stay alive, as long as you're breathing you'll have your chance at revenge.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Oooh ok this is where it gets fun.

Personally I say just avoid drinking entirely, I myself don't drink and I've yet to hear a story involving booze that ended positively. If this is something you're unwilling to do, only drink at home and avoid pubs or if you do go out make sure to go in a group and have one person sober at all times to keep an eye on the rest of the group.

With stalking unless you catch them in the act, there's not much you can do as long as it doesn't go beyond simple stalking, I know I know it's sucks but no proof means no real basis.

Same with surveillance, In a world where nothing is truly private anymore, all you can do is deal with it when it shows up acting before that in either case just leaves you looking or being paranoid.

As much as i hate how people hype this martial art up, I must admit in the event of sexual assault Brazilian jiujitsu is a very useful martial art to know, as despite being a purely ground game focused style, where do most SA attempts end up? The ground. I still hold the belief that BJJ is a very situational martial art it just so happens that in SA cases it's a situation that happens in pretty much any scenario you can think of. Just don't let them pin your arms or you are screwed...obviously.

As for knife placement, ok I need you to stick with me on this. Buy a switchblade, a push up bra and a bunch of those cleavage exposing tshirts. They'll never see it coming. No I am not joking, pulling a switchblade from between your boobs is something most attackers won't expect, just play coy and pretend you're into it.

I saved the family one for last, because I'll be honest I have no idea how to stop it from happening since the issue is this is happening by someone you thought you could trust so you don't see it coming until it's too late.

In this case you have 2 options, If you know there are people around then claw and scream and bite like hell and make as much of a commotion as you can someone is going to hear and see what's going on. If you know you're alone, then this is the only thing I can think of...bide your time, let him think he's broken you and wait.

If he lets down his guard if you have a knife on you, use that chance to shove it in there neck, if not then make sure you have a voice recorder for next time(and yes with these types there WILL be a next time) and get him to admit what he's doing to you so he has nowhere to run.

I must make clear that this is in the absolute worst case scenario and if you're lucky it won't come to that, but if it does the important thing is that you stay alive, as long as you're breathing you'll have your chance at revenge.

Anti-surveillance refers to noticing when people are watching/following you, and nonconfrontationally warding them off.

Generally speaking, in a lethal force encounter, you are using the BJJ/wrestling to access your weapon, not as the primary means of escape.

I have concerns about accessing a switchblade, from the bra, in clinch/guard, under duress. I’m not aware of anyone using anything other than fixed weapons while grappling.

 

[Mallic]

Anti-surveillance refers to noticing when people are watching/following you, and nonconfrontationally warding them off.

Generally speaking, in a lethal force encounter, you are using the BJJ/wrestling to access your weapon, not as the primary means of escape.

I have concerns about accessing a switchblade, from the bra, in clinch/guard, under duress. I’m not aware of anyone using anything other than fixed weapons while grappling.

Ideally you don't wanna be in a grapple, you wanna pull it out as a sneak attack while leading him on into thinking you'll be cooperative.

As for the anti surveillance thing, try to get into a crowd of people to make them lose track of you

 

[drop bear]

Anti-surveillance refers to noticing when people are watching/following you, and nonconfrontationally warding them off.

Generally speaking, in a lethal force encounter, you are using the BJJ/wrestling to access your weapon, not as the primary means of escape.

I have concerns about accessing a switchblade, from the bra, in clinch/guard, under duress. I’m not aware of anyone using anything other than fixed weapons while grappling.

Which is the shivworks philosophy.

Which I kind of like. And the grappling is reasonable anyway.

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[GreenieMeanie]

Which is the shivworks philosophy.

Which I kind of like. And the grappling is reasonable anyway.

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See posts, photos and more on Facebook.

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Shivworks does teach it, and I suppose they popularized it in the combatives community, but they are one of many with that approach. It seems to be the default, and I don’t see anyone with a better idea.

 

[hoshin1600]

Sometimes I wonder why I choose to wade into the cesspool of these type conversations but here we go again.
For starters I see no attempt to define and categorize the different types of threats that actually exist other than the comment about family and friends. Any serious conversation would start there and build from there. Without that this entire thread is going nowhere.
Second I don't think people want the truth, especially in a thread like this. It's more fun to be in a world of make believe and fantasize about training ( or maybe being in some cases) some bad *** Be,atch..
Here is the truth. Women already know the answer about drink spiking. DONT GO TO BARS AND DRINK. If your going to take that risk you go out with friends who have your back. You don't leave your drink unattended and stick with a bottle where you can keep your thumb over the top. Yeah, someone is going to try to tell me about how the bartender could be in on it, yes sure, go back to the first rule, Don't Drink. Statistically speaking most sexual assault and violence happens when both parties are under the influence. Problem solved.

SEXUAL ASSAULT BY FAMILY OR CLOSE FRIEND:
Ok you want the actual truth? martial arts is not the solution for this problem. In fact it is so low on the scale of importance that it's not on the list. Combative skills, knife work, guns, less lethal options, nope none are on the list of priorities. In most cases (as an adult) the real answer is years of therapy that should take place long before the assault so you are in a better emotional place so it never happens. And in many cases I would add the word "again" to that statement. Victims during childhood are far more likely to experience repeating assaults throughout their lives from multiple attackers. Good therapy will allow people to see the patterns of grooming that happens long before the assault.

STALKING: Yeah kinda the same advise. most perpetrators are from a past relationship. Get counseling to figure out why you are repeatedly getting into relationships with narcissistic men with violent tendencies. These never end well, most often homicide. Martial arts, ect ect .... not the appropriate answer.
Now there may be cases of stalking from unknown assailants. Example would be someone famous with a deranged fan. In this case I would advise top notch home security and a firearm. Oh you live in a country that outlawed firearms? Well your SOL. follow your governments solution, call the police and wait.

ANTI- what ever you want to call it:
I call BS on this one, if your not military or law enforcement. Only crazy people walk around throughout their day looking for possible threats.
Truth, it takes too much mental energy and an obsessive compulsive personality to do this. Normal people will get tired of it after a few hours. Just listen to your gut instincts. Your brain is collecting more data than your frontal Cortex can process. Your intuition is actually collected data that is being recognized by other parts of your brain. You don't need to do anything fancy or special training. You only need to listen and act on it.

WHEN TO USE force ..BLAH BLAH BLAH:
this is very specific to local laws. It's already written down in law. However it's not that simple. This is very straightforward a matter for legal advise.

Those are my general thoughts. Most conversation on women's self defense, when discussed by men fail to understand the actual issues women face. It's mostly fantasy talk. Men can't understand. It's like arguing the When Harry met Sally troupe. Can men and women be friends? It's a circular argument with no end that will never have any sort of agreement.

 

[Mallic]

Sometimes I wonder why I choose to wade into the cesspool of these type conversations but here we go again.
For starters I see no attempt to define and categorize the different types of threats that actually exist other than the comment about family and friends. Any serious conversation would start there and build from there. Without that this entire thread is going nowhere.
Second I don't think people want the truth, especially in a thread like this. It's more fun to be in a world of make believe and fantasize about training ( or maybe being in some cases) some bad *** Be,atch..
Here is the truth. Women already know the answer about drink spiking. DONT GO TO BARS AND DRINK. If your going to take that risk you go out with friends who have your back. You don't leave your drink unattended and stick with a bottle where you can keep your thumb over the top. Yeah, someone is going to try to tell me about how the bartender could be in on it, yes sure, go back to the first rule, Don't Drink. Statistically speaking most sexual assault and violence happens when both parties are under the influence. Problem solved.

SEXUAL ASSAULT BY FAMILY OR CLOSE FRIEND:
Ok you want the actual truth? martial arts is not the solution for this problem. In fact it is so low on the scale of importance that it's not on the list. Combative skills, knife work, guns, less lethal options, nope none are on the list of priorities. In most cases (as an adult) the real answer is years of therapy that should take place long before the assault so you are in a better emotional place so it never happens. And in many cases I would add the word "again" to that statement. Victims during childhood are far more likely to experience repeating assaults throughout their lives from multiple attackers. Good therapy will allow people to see the patterns of grooming that happens long before the assault.

STALKING: Yeah kinda the same advise. most perpetrators are from a past relationship. Get counseling to figure out why you are repeatedly getting into relationships with narcissistic men with violent tendencies. These never end well, most often homicide. Martial arts, ect ect .... not the appropriate answer.
Now there may be cases of stalking from unknown assailants. Example would be someone famous with a deranged fan. In this case I would advise top notch home security and a firearm. Oh you live in a country that outlawed firearms? Well your SOL. follow your governments solution, call the police and wait.

ANTI- what ever you want to call it:
I call BS on this one, if your not military or law enforcement. Only crazy people walk around throughout their day looking for possible threats.
Truth, it takes too much mental energy and an obsessive compulsive personality to do this. Normal people will get tired of it after a few hours. Just listen to your gut instincts. Your brain is collecting more data than your frontal Cortex can process. Your intuition is actually collected data that is being recognized by other parts of your brain. You don't need to do anything fancy or special training. You only need to listen and act on it.

WHEN TO USE force ..BLAH BLAH BLAH:
this is very specific to local laws. It's already written down in law. However it's not that simple. This is very straightforward a matter for legal advise.

Those are my general thoughts. Most conversation on women's self defense, when discussed by men fail to understand the actual issues women face. It's mostly fantasy talk. Men can't understand. It's like arguing the When Harry met Sally troupe. Can men and women be friends? It's a circular argument with no end that will never have any sort of agreement.

TL;DR:Become a lesbian and just avoid men entirely.

In all seriousness why are you shaming someone for wanting a little bit of agency in such a situation?

You're basically telling them to to everything they can to avoid it because once they do get into it there's literally nothing they can do but accept their fate. Telling someone it's a waste of time to wanna fight back actually does more harm then good.

You may think thinking up stratagems is a waste of time but personally it's still better then embracing perpetual victimhood.