women's techniques

[marlon]

It has come up before that some people teach different kempo techniques to women. Perhaps i misunderstood things, however, in my opinion if the techniques being taught to women are for reasons of effectiveness against bigger stronger male attackers, then i would say throw out all the rest as these would seem to be the most effective for anyone. i mean if you are going to teach a woman differently because they are supposedly weaker then what are you teaching them/ Probably a more technique based response that necessitates lees physical strength and relies more on timing and positioning. Sounds like a great technique for anyone. And, what of the slightly built male who shows up. are they taught the female techniques? Are there other reasons for teaching women differently than men? Any thoughts on this issue would be much appreciated.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Kacey]

Well, I teach TKD, not Kenpo/Kempo - but I teach the same techniques to everyone. I may emphasize certain techniques to certain students, and other techniques to other students - but it's based on size, build and flexibility, not gender; otherwise, I'd have to have different curricula for kids under a certain age (or size), for teens of each gender, for young adults of each gender, for middle aged adults, for people with physical problems (flexibility, back problems, knee problems)... you get the idea. I teach everything, and people put into practice what they like the best, which is usually the techniques that work the best for them.

 

[MJS]

It has come up before that some people teach different kempo techniques to women. Perhaps i misunderstood things, however, in my opinion if the techniques being taught to women are for reasons of effectiveness against bigger stronger male attackers, then i would say throw out all the rest as these would seem to be the most effective for anyone. i mean if you are going to teach a woman differently because they are supposedly weaker then what are you teaching them/ Probably a more technique based response that necessitates lees physical strength and relies more on timing and positioning. Sounds like a great technique for anyone. And, what of the slightly built male who shows up. are they taught the female techniques? Are there other reasons for teaching women differently than men? Any thoughts on this issue would be much appreciated.

Respectfully,
Marlon

IMHO, I think that both men and women should be taught the same techniques. Teach them the same and have both males and females work together. Now, take a wrist grab technique such as Crossing Talon. A male may be able to just go right into the move and make it work, while a female may not. So, in that case, teaching a 'distraction' such as a kick to the leg, strike to the face, etc. and then go into the technique would be fine. Personally, I see nothing wrong with doing that for a male as well.

 

[ktaylor75]

Speaking from my limited 5 months of experience, in the Kenpo school I attend, so far, I have been taught everything the same as my training partner (a male). We are the only two orange belts, so we always get paired up together (only one time was I paired with the other female in the class).

 

[LawDog]

Selfdefense / fighting skills are not gender based, only extremes in age and weight should be considered.

 

[Touch Of Death]

It has come up before that some people teach different kempo techniques to women. Perhaps i misunderstood things, however, in my opinion if the techniques being taught to women are for reasons of effectiveness against bigger stronger male attackers, then i would say throw out all the rest as these would seem to be the most effective for anyone. i mean if you are going to teach a woman differently because they are supposedly weaker then what are you teaching them/ Probably a more technique based response that necessitates lees physical strength and relies more on timing and positioning. Sounds like a great technique for anyone. And, what of the slightly built male who shows up. are they taught the female techniques? Are there other reasons for teaching women differently than men? Any thoughts on this issue would be much appreciated.

Respectfully,
Marlon

Kenpo is not one size fits all. Children and small females should have mobility ahead of stability... period, end of story!

 

[Sukerkin]

It's an interesting area of discourse but I think, as has been touched upon above, it's should more be discussed in terms of disparities in size and strength than gender.

On the core subject of whether women/smaller-people should do techniques differently than men/bigger people, then the ubiquitous "It depends" comes to the fore .

For example, in the partner forms of MJER, one of the kata calls for one iaidoka to take hold of the wrist and manipulate the sword angle of his/her opponent whilst similutaneously breaking their posture. My partner was a slender and petite woman and physically could not get her fingers around my wrist sufficiently to execute the technique. As we are encouraged not to 'give the result away' as noone learns anything if you do, I refused to go with the ineffective technique. We talked about what was happening and why she couldn't do it. The solution? Well, she's a third dan karate as well so she came in with a plunging knife-hand to my wrist with her body-weight behind it, knocking me off posture and allowing her partial wrist-grip to turn my blade over whilst she ran me through .

It's not strict MJER but it worked .

 

[still learning]

Hello, There are times when certain techniques need to be change to fit the person.

Size, weight, height, lenght and ? ....Kempo is NOT one siZe that fits all...good point from above!

In rape seminars...there is more emphasis are certain "techniques" than others. Things women can do and should use first! You don't expect women to go one on one with kicks and punches? ..in these situtions?

For those who are more flexible...Man or Women? ...you would teach these people a few more things..than those who cannot bend at all!

The Ideal teacher teaches the art to fit the person! Can be same stuffs with varietions...on them!

Aloha ( Some say Women wants to be treated equal with MEN? ...yet women say they are different...so they want to be treated as a Women? ...not as MEN!)

 

[marlon]

Kenpo is not one size fits all. Children and small females should have mobility ahead of stability... period, end of story!

i do not disagree that everyone should personalize their art. However, my point is about what makes a self defense technique effective. the things i have heard discussed about how a person with a more slight built and less wieght (many women fall into this category) should execute a technique always sounds to me like a more effective technique, this assuming that proper stances and positioning are taught. The wrist example above is a perfect example of what i am taking about. why not make the technique with the things that made it effective for the woman. What happens when the big strong man meets a bigger stronger man? Should we not teach the techniques in the mosst effective way to everybody?

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Kacey]

i do not disagree that everyone should personalize their art. However, my point is about what makes a self defense technique effective. the things i have heard discussed about how a person with a more slight built and less wieght (many women fall into this category) should execute a technique always sounds to me like a more effective technique, this assuming that proper stances and positioning are taught. The wrist example above is a perfect example of what i am taking about. why not make the technique with the things that made it effective for the woman. What happens when the big strong man meets a bigger stronger man? Should we not teach the techniques in the mosst effective way to everybody?

respectfully,
Marlon

The problem lies in assuming that all lighter/weaker people will be women, and all heavier/stronger people will be men. One of my TKD students is 22, 6'3", lifts weights... and is female, a direct contract to another student, who is 26, 5'6", stocky, horribly out of shape... and male. Is his potential strength greater than hers? Probably, especially in the upper body - but I teach them each from where they are now - not based on a stereotypical expectation based on their gender. All students are individuals, and all instruction should therefore be individualized as much as possible, within the precepts of the style in question.

 

[Sukerkin]

That's such a good last point, Kacey.

I've, embarassingly, been pinned to the ground and tickled mercilessly by a female friend of mine who happens to match your description of your student (except she's "6' 2", eyes of blue" to steal some old song lyrics) and outmasses me proportionally (I'm a puny 5' 11" since my bike accident squished my spine).

Okay, it's true that this only happened because she's not martial arts trained and I didn't want to hurt her (and, to 'win', I would have to, given the physical disparity) but it does not invalidate the point that women are not necessarily weaker (which is why I made the point I did in my previous post).

 

[marlon]

The problem lies in assuming that all lighter/weaker people will be women, and all heavier/stronger people will be men. One of my TKD students is 22, 6'3", lifts weights... and is female, a direct contract to another student, who is 26, 5'6", stocky, horribly out of shape... and male. Is his potential strength greater than hers? Probably, especially in the upper body - but I teach them each from where they are now - not based on a stereotypical expectation based on their gender. All students are individuals, and all instruction should therefore be individualized as much as possible, within the precepts of the style in question.

i am actually not assuming a gender to physical mass and size at all...in fact this distinction is an essential part of then point. Let me ask the question differently (please remember that i do not in an\y way shape or form suggest a "one size fits all" method and i really do not understand how such a comment came into this thread) Do we teach our techniques to work in the situations where we have the advantage of size and strength or where we are at a disadvantage? If the latter is what we intend to do then why would the techniques not incorporate most of the 'differences' that we would teach to the smaller weaker students, into all the techniques? ...well as for the rest i'll wait to see where this leads first.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Kacey]

i am actually not assuming a gender to physical mass and size at all...in fact this distinction is an essential part of then point. Let me ask the question differently (please remember that i do not in an\y way shape or form suggest a "one size fits all" method and i really do not understand how such a comment came into this thread) Do we teach our techniques to work in the situations where we have the advantage of size and strength or where we are at a disadvantage? If the latter is what we intend to do then why would the techniques not incorporate most of the 'differences' that we would teach to the smaller weaker students, into all the techniques? ...well as for the rest i'll wait to see where this leads first.

Respectfully,
Marlon

Not all techniques will work for "smaller weaker students"; likewise, not all techniques will work for larger, stronger students - and even with two students who are matched for size, strength, flexibility, reach, etc., there will be some techniques that work for both, and some that work better for one than the other. As an instructor, I teach everything to everyone, and included in my instruction is teaching students how to modify techniques to fit their own strengths and weaknesses. By not teaching something to a student, I limit the student's toolbox - and why would I want to do that?

 

[MJS]

Kenpo is not one size fits all. Children and small females should have mobility ahead of stability... period, end of story!

I don't necessarily disagree, although it seemed to me that the OP was talking more about teaching something not part of the Kenpo material, rather than teaching the same material, but making an adjustment if needed, due to size, reach, etc., disadvantages.

Mike

 

[morph4me]

I teach aikido, not kempo, but I think the distinction might not be that different techniques are being taught, but the same techniques are being taught differently.

I don't really like to generalize, but in my own experience I've found that when I teach women they learn quicker and easier because they don't try to use strength and pick up the subtleties of the techniques quicker. Men can usually muscle through a technique and make it work women rely on the technique and are better at getting the principles.

You can watch various practioners doing the same style and see the same technique performed a little differently by each one, and see different instructors of the same style teaching the same technique a little differently. Taking a technique and adapting it for one's individual stregnths and weaknesses is what makes a martial art.

 

[Christina05]

I teach aikido, not kempo, but I think the distinction might not be that different techniques are being taught, but the same techniques are being taught differently.

I don't really like to generalize, but in my own experience I've found that when I teach women they learn quicker and easier because they don't try to use strength and pick up the subtleties of the techniques quicker. Men can usually muscle through a technique and make it work women rely on the technique and are better at getting the principles.

You can watch various practioners doing the same style and see the same technique performed a little differently by each one, and see different instructors of the same style teaching the same technique a little differently. Taking a technique and adapting it for one's individual stregnths and weaknesses is what makes a martial art.

Very very true Women are technique oriented. Guess we figure learn it correctly manipulate it later to make it effective in my opinion anyway.

 

[DavidCC]

We don't teach the women differnet techniques or drills, but that doesn't mean their learning style is the same.

There are certain assualts that are basically gender-specific, that is, it is unlikely that a man will attack another man that way... but we train the men those techniques anyway

 

[Danjo]

Women have a narrower range of effective techniques than men do due to their relative size and strength. For women to be effective against a larger male aggressor, they need to utilize techniques that have a far higher chance of causing permanent damage or death. Eye gouges, throat strikes, perforating the ear drum, destroying the knee, etc. are vicious moves that should only be utilized in situations that warrant them. When a woman is being attacked by a man, I would say that these type of techniques are warranted. She must not only be taught these moves and targets, but also the most effective delivery methods.

However, if you are law enforcement, a bouncer, security guard, dealing with a lout at a bar, women fighting other women, or a drunk at a party, these are probably too extreme to employ with any justification. Thus the need for other techniques. If one were to only train in those techniques that cause permanent injury or worse, we would have no way to effectively respond to those situations that were not life or death.

 

[DavidCC]

Women have a narrower range of effective techniques than men do due to their relative size and strength. For women to be effective against a larger male aggressor, they need to utilize techniques that have a far higher chance of causing permanent damage or death. Eye gouges, throat strikes, perforating the ear drum, destroying the knee, etc. are vicious moves that should only be utilized in situations that warrant them. When a woman is being attacked by a man, I would say that these type of techniques are warranted. She must not only be taught these moves and targets, but also the most effective delivery methods.

However, if you are law enforcement, a bouncer, security guard, dealing with a lout at a bar, women fighting other women, or a drunk at a party, these are probably too extreme to employ with any justification. Thus the need for other techniques. If one were to only train in those techniques that cause permanent injury or worse, we would have no way to effectively respond to those situations that were not life or death.

hey Danjo, I just noticed you got the 1st degree! Congrats!

-David

 

[Danjo]

hey Danjo, I just noticed you got the 1st degree! Congrats!

-David

Thanks David, but you forgot to say how great my post was.