Wolf pack training

[digitalronin]

...but you do blame the victim? Am I supposed to leave my friend to be ...whatever by someone or someones, without any attempt to help her?

I'd rather train to try and keep all of my friends alive.

In an ideal world you will all make it back home. This is a no win situation described, an attack by armed thugs. If u stay to help the friend, u could wind up dead, if u take off then u have to live with the fact that u left some one behind. Of course if u choose to run the first thing u do is call the cops and maybe an ambulance for the friend.

How much training does it take to disarm someone that has a gun or knife and is really bent on killing. Now add the gang factor. Do the victims also have guns or are unarmed?

I'm not trying to be the bad guy, just trying to see this thing realistically. Maybe the leos on this forum have a solution to this puzzle.

 

[AC_Pilot]

The wolf pack will fail when they run into a ready and armed defender. I feel (slightly sorry for any pack that tries me.. it's an unrealistic concept in much of America today where we can carry a legally concealed firearm. In Washington State 1 in 19 adults packs/has a CC permit. I cannot think of a place where lethal force on the part of the defender would not be warranted when attacked by a "pack", even an unarmed pack.

I am sure there are a few scenarios where it could work but I would never depend on unknown outsiders in a tight spot, even were they willing, I would assume they were incapable of the needed action and act as a "lone wolf", if they can help out then great.. but if not then I've assumed the worst case scenario.

Yes I would and legally can in my state help out an innocent victim of any felony personal crime. I carry two firearms at all times and sometimes three, reloads, a large folding knife, cell phone, flashlight, etc.. and my personal hand to hand skills.

 

[digitalronin]

The wolf pack will fail when they run into a ready and armed defender. I feel (slightly sorry for any pack that tries me.. it's an unrealistic concept in much of America today where we can carry a legally concealed firearm. In Washington State 1 in 19 adults packs/has a CC permit. I cannot think of a place where lethal force on the part of the defender would not be warranted when attacked by a "pack", even an unarmed pack.

I'm moving to washington down here in calif, it seems the only ones packing are the cops and thugs. Which other states have easy CC permit laws?

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Why cant she run? Too much alchohol? High heels? I hate to blame the victim, but in a case where a person loses of his/her defensive abilities it may be warrented.

Assault is never warranted. Rape is never warranted.

You said you considered she might have a handicap, but your post doesn't reflect that. It appears you assume she's drunk or wearing "high heels."

Consider these scenarios:

1. She's recovering from knee surgery. A "scoped" meniscus, say for example. I know two women who have undergone that.
2. She has spina bifida and is in a wheelchair. By coincidence, I know two women like that, as well.
3. She has mild cerebral palsy or suffered trauma to the brain that limits her ability to move, but not her ability to enjoy a social situation. I also know two women like that. One was in a car accident, the other had CP from birth.

If I'm beating a dead horse here I do so to hammer home a point that I've brought up before: Not all of us are in perfect health and in the spring of youth.

That said, putting a handicapped person into the scenario is a good way to train. Making ourselves the person is a good way to train. Put your arm in a sling or your leg in a Zimmer splint and train that way...wolfpack and without wolfpack.

And I, for one, would never abandon the friend. I doubt many here would.


Regards,


Steve

 

[digitalronin]

Assault is never warranted. Rape is never warranted.

You said you considered she might have a handicap, but your post doesn't reflect that. It appears you assume she's drunk or wearing "high heels."

I have worked dances, special events, and bars so I am bit biased and probably a little sexist when I commented about the high heels. Remember its a dance club. Its personal experience and opinion as to what the defenders are wearing, not a social rule. I did consider a situation where a handicapped person is involved, i just didnt post it because its less common. The handicap factor was introduced in a later post. I went with the more common situation, where in club environment, half the people there are under the influence and wearing fancy uncomfortable shoes (oxfords , high heels). Most importantly very few are armed with a weapon.

One of the points I was trying to convey is that a person can still go out and have a good time while being risk aware. Some one that drinks to the point they cannot walk without help, voluntarily gives up a level of thier ability to defend themselves. It is a concious act at the start. This blame is also held by the bartender that served this person too many drinks.


[qoute]
That said, putting a handicapped person into the scenario is a good way to train. Making ourselves the person is a good way to train. Put your arm in a sling or your leg in a Zimmer splint and train that way...wolfpack and without wolfpack.
[/qoute]


It is a good training scenerio, but add the booze and party clothes. The odds are not looking good. Theres a reason security personel are not allowed to drink.

Try an experiment , go out have a couple of beers then practice gun disarms, defensive tactics, against some one sober. Alchohol reduces reaction time, perception, judgement, and the ability to defend one's self.

Study: College drinking in 1,400 deaths

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I think one of the aspects of the "wolfpack" training I was thinking of, but perhaps did not make explicit (although I think hardheadjarhead mentioned a number of different possibilities), is that my friend who cannot run - because she wears high heels all the time, has a bad back, etc. - is not someone who trains in martial arts.

Not everyone I know - probably less than half of people I know - actively think about self-defense, or scenario training. As women, my girlfriends all tend to be more aware, seek safer routes, etc., but being able to defend against an attacker is not someone's primary thought when going out to a bar with a couple of friends.

So then what do I do when I am with these friends?

I would have a very difficult time abandoning one of them. It would depend on the scenario, yes. If weapons were involved, yes, I'd probably be more likely to run screaming for help.
So what if it's not? How do I train to communicate in a group, and when one or more members cannot do very much - or freezes in panic (which even trained MAers can do)?

 

[digitalronin]

I think one of the aspects of the "wolfpack" training I was thinking of, but perhaps did not make explicit (although I think hardheadjarhead mentioned a number of different possibilities), is that my friend who cannot run - because she wears high heels all the time, has a bad back, etc. - is not someone who trains in martial arts.

You would have to make a barrier(s) between the attacker and ur friend.
I been drawing again so here goes:

BLUE = Friend
RED = Attacker
Yellow = Friend but cant fight


Note: Human fence should be subtitled Linear Fence . Not all the elements may be present in a given situation. It may be just u and the friend. If the friend has some mobility she should be instructed to move away from the attacker to some point of safety such into the club. CLEAR and Direct communication to your friend to escape and the the attacker(s) that u wont back down. You should also be thinking of getting away, unless u can kick his/thier ***.


In the circular fence, the Friend farthest away from attacker may have to assist YELLOW in her escape. Maybe a drill is needed to practice draging.

Let me know what u think, or if u know a different approach.

Best Wishes,

G

 

[Ceicei]

I'm moving to washington down here in calif, it seems the only ones packing are the cops and thugs. Which other states have easy CC permit laws?

Come to Utah.

If you want to investigate which states have good permit laws, check out www.packing.org (if you haven't already).

- Ceicei

 

[The Prof]

We do two against one and occasionally three against one. It is a very good practice. It does get pretty rough at times so we have to watch it very closely.

Regards,

The Prof

 

[Rich Parsons]

Victum

(Aggressor) A#1 A#2

A#3



Defendant D#1 D#2


I have stepped in being D#1 and friend being D#2 while V was in leg brace from Knee surgery and on crutches, and A#1-3 plus their friends in the back ground were after V. I was able to deflect their aggression towards me, to allow the V to leave the scene, crawling on hands and feet as he had lost his crutch. This also allowed others (people standing near by) to come to help V as they would not be in direct line of assault. It also allowed others (Witnesses) to call for help, since the pack of assualt was concentrating on us two. We had our backs to a wall, not good for great mobility, but good enough to avoid being surrounded. The pack was unsure of themselves, with another (* Smaller Pack *) standing its ground and acting well as a team. The pack of A's lost sight of the V and lost interest and just stood around laughing until the police showed up.

:asian:

 

[OULobo]

I think one of the aspects of the "wolfpack" training I was thinking of, but perhaps did not make explicit (although I think hardheadjarhead mentioned a number of different possibilities), is that my friend who cannot run - because she wears high heels all the time, has a bad back, etc. - is not someone who trains in martial arts.

Not everyone I know - probably less than half of people I know - actively think about self-defense, or scenario training. As women, my girlfriends all tend to be more aware, seek safer routes, etc., but being able to defend against an attacker is not someone's primary thought when going out to a bar with a couple of friends.

So then what do I do when I am with these friends?

I would have a very difficult time abandoning one of them. It would depend on the scenario, yes. If weapons were involved, yes, I'd probably be more likely to run screaming for help.
So what if it's not? How do I train to communicate in a group, and when one or more members cannot do very much - or freezes in panic (which even trained MAers can do)?

I have trained this in both self-defense and combat application. They are very different for the reasons you mention. In self-defense you have to compensate for people who have no MA or self-defense training. That is the hardest part because you don't know how they will react. It is also hard to train this, because in practice your partners are somewhat experienced, but in the club/street/whatever, they are probably not trained.

In combat or with weapons the situation changes drastically. In these situations, in which your partners are probably armed too, you must coordinate as to not put your partners in danger when you use your weapon. Swinging machetes and whipping knives about puts anyone in the area in danger. You have to start realizing things like backswing and followthrough can injure your partners, and take away any advantage you might have had with numbers. It is the same thing as watching for a muzzle sweep during a killhouse exercise or looking at a crossfire instead of shooting directly across from your partner where you might hit him if you miss or the bullet passes through.

 

[Spanner]

My husband and younger sister have both been taught and used many-to-one drills in their jobs as police officer and mental health nurse respectively. As has already been mentioned, it is important to be able to work as a team when tackling someone who is violent, particularly people with mental health problems or who are high on certain types of drugs, as they often become disproportionately strong in relation to their size.

The drills that are practised for this type of scenario generally involve strikes that do not incur serious injury, together with techniques against the joints to restrain them. Whether people are able to restrict themselves to those techniques alone is another matter. They also presume an untrained opponent, which much martial arts training does not.

 

[digitalronin]

What drills do they do in health care? I can picture violent paitents, weird drug reactions, mental paitents, etc. How do they respond to a situation where they have to use minimum force. This would apply to a school yard incident.

thanks,

G

 

[AC_Pilot]

Ronin said:

I'm moving to washington down here in calif, it seems the only ones packing are the cops and thugs. Which other states have easy CC permit laws?

Sorry for the delay, I just returned to this thread. Yes, someone beat me to it.. www.packing.org is an excellent site for state by state CCW laws and more, and I post there nearly every day.

Ronin, you'll probably love WA State..the rain in W WA gets to you after some years here but there's a lot to make up for it and very little snow if any. Almost nothing this year. Eastern WA is much drier and the entire state is much more libertarian in 'tude. We're from California and moving here in 1992 was like crossing the iron curtain.. I was a 2nd Amendment activist and employed technical professional in Sacramento, and boy was it a relief to escape.

We have a large rural estate here on the Olympic Peninsula and a home in town, that total, cost no more than a decent home in Sacratormento. I have a Shelby Cobra sportscar and when I registered it there was no inspection and where we live there are no smog checks at all. It's a hotrodder's and offroaders heaven. We even ride our dirtbikes and drive our 4 x 4s on the Pacific ocean beaches. Write me at [email protected] if you would like to chat.. I am in the Olympia area..60 miles south of Seattle on the I5 corridor. Regards, Steve

 

[Spanner]

What drills do they do in health care? I can picture violent paitents, weird drug reactions, mental paitents, etc. How do they respond to a situation where they have to use minimum force. This would apply to a school yard incident.

Control and restraint has become a bit of a political hot potato in the UK recently, as people have become more aware of its misuse, and the death and injury of patients, so the emphasis has now changed in many places from physical methods of restraining patients to recognising the reasons for violent behaviour amongst patients and trying to diffuse aggression before it starts. They place heavy emphasis on practising verbal skills for coping with aggression and working in teams to 'talk down' difficult situations.

The techniques my sister was taught are similar to Ju Jitsu or Tai Jitsu escapes: Various Arm holds, clothing holds, strangle holds, bear hugs and hair pulls, but they are practised as a team, where another person assists the 'trapped' member of staff to remove themself from the situation, e.g. they take one of the arms and start to lock it, while the other person proceeds to lock the other arm and the patient is lowered to the floor.

Again, whether they still teach these is open to question, as there have been a number of deaths from asphyxiation caused by people being restrained lying down on their front, both in police custody and psychiatric units. I doubt whether you'd be able to use this sort of technique within a school since the tolerance for injury of a pupil would be even lower.