Martial Arts vs Multiple Attackers

[lklawson]

Onto weapons, I competed in an IDPA tournament once, and if I was dealing with multiple attackers I'd definitely be happy to have my M&P handy.

Firearms training has a LOT of critical knowledge and skills that should be imported directly into any SD/RBSD curriculum. One small example is how to deal with tunnel vision and "scan" for threats during adrenal dumb.

Lots of other juicy goodness too.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I agree and this is kind of where I stand on teaching grappling, throwing take downs etc. etc. For my school and my curriculum I stress getting the person to the ground and get away. Or if possible shove the person into someone else, or a wall, chair, desk, bar, etc. etc. I don't want to control him or make him submit per say if I can hit them (stun or cause them pain) off balance or throw them and then take off. I find getting away easiest if I'm not on the floor.

While most people agree that it's far preferable for you to stay standing and your opponent to be on the ground, the big problem with that is that if your opponent is intent on getting you to the ground, it's really really hard to prevent it and comparatively easier by at least one order of magnitude for him to achieve his goal. Even unskilled goobers can often just barnacle on and drag an opponent to the floor in an unceremonious heap. While that may not end up with the goober having an advantageous "position" for the ensuing "ground fight" phase of the conflict, it still means "ground fight" anyway.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Playing devil's advocate, an art that specializes on the ground (i.e. Jiu-Jitsu) would have a better chance if taken to the ground than an art where you try to stay standing, because you've practiced for that scenario. There's always a pro and a con.

It's the "if taken to the ground" part that is the key. As I just wrote, it's really hard to prevent a takedown if the only goal is just to get both people in a tangled heap on the floor, particularly these days with MMA becoming such a mainstay in our culture. This is why I, personally, recommend that SD advocates have at least some portion of ground grappling in their training mix. It doesn't have to be their goal, their primary modus operandi, or their specialty. But the fact is that there's a pretty significant chance that the opponent is at least familiar enough with the concept of ground grappling to think he might try to drag the defender down and the defender needs to have enough training and experience to, at the minimum, know how to safely stymie the attack, disengage the opponent, and safely return to standing. You just can't assume you won't hit the floor.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I see 'horse stance' as a grappling stance normally used in a throw or takedown.

Which takedowns or throws are you thinking of that use the horse stance?

I would take the opposite tack here. Intentionally going to the ground to grapple against multiple opponents isn't going to have a pretty outcome. Fighting from the ground as practised in say Systema is a different thing altogether.

I can cite at least one instance I know of personally where ground grappling worked just fine against multiples. While it makes sense, logically, that if you're on the ground with one guy then his still-standing buddy would take the boot to you, evidence is pretty convincing that you can't assume that he will. Some fights with "multiples" aren't actually against multiples. They're against one guy with buddies who egged him into the fight and they might just stand around and laugh at him while he gets his butt handed to him.

Naturally, of course, you, quite equally, can't depend on his buddies not doing anything either.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[RTKDCMB]

Er... no. Sorry. I'm with Tony here. Nothing to do with a real fight, nor anything to do with realistic violence, tactics that could help, strategic action, or anything else. And I'm saying that with Rhee TaeKwonDo being part of my background (the same system in the clip), so I'm pretty aware of what I was looking at. Hell, I remember doing the same thing... and it's practical application is limited to say the least.

Just out of interest, how long did you do it for and how long ago was it?

We all know opinions on sparring but you do remember it is basically just a drill and not meant to represent violence in a completely realistic way don't you. Its longer and more drawn out and meant to give the practitioners a way to practice dealing with different attacks and combinations in a continuous, unscripted way, and learning to place one attacker in front of another is a tactic that does help and is very practical. Oh and the term nothing is just plain wrong unless it is in reference to the sparring in the video having nothing to do with tournament point sparring. I have experienced real violence, real violence is usually committed in a flash and often one sided and unfortunately on one occasion I allowed it to be drawn out and paid dearly for it and it wasn't because I tried to spar him (which I didn't).

 

[Steve]

Your best chance of complete victory...carry a gun. After that, a knife or club are the next best ways to deal with multiple attackers. If you don't have a weapon, don't hold back, eyes, throat or knees are your best bet to get the other guys attention. Just saying...

I would say this is the second best chance of complete victory. Your best chance of victory is to avoid the fight altogether. Common sense, situational awareness, general courtesy, respect and good communication skills are the best self defense tools most of us can develop.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I can cite at least one instance I know of personally where ground grappling worked just fine against multiples. While it makes sense, logically, that if you're on the ground with one guy then his still-standing buddy would take the boot to you, evidence is pretty convincing that you can't assume that he will. Some fights with "multiples" aren't actually against multiples. They're against one guy with buddies who egged him into the fight and they might just stand around and laugh at him while he gets his butt handed to him.

Naturally, of course, you, quite equally, can't depend on his buddies not doing anything either.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

One thing that can be good for having you and your opponent on the ground is that you can use him as a human shield to avoid a stomping until help arrives, if you know help is arriving of course.

 

[lklawson]

I agree with your list (I'd included putting obstacles between yourself and the group as well), but the order I feel can be rather subjective... additionally, I don't necessarily feel that they exist in isolation. For us, the first line of defence is awareness... if that fails, we move onto pre-emptive striking (with a specific criteria/hierarchy that we follow), with the overall aim of doing what we need to do to escape... knowing that we might have to turn back and re-engage if being pursued... but can spend that time looking for equalizers (actual or improvised weapons/obstacles) before following the same engage and escape strategy. The only one we don't really cover is bringing friends... the most common practice we have involving friends is protecting them. Not that it's not a good tactic, we just don't cover it in our approach, as unless they are all in the same class, it's not easy to drill such a thing for reality.

I take my list from a variety of sources including past training and common sense. But my favorite source comes from a drill/scenario that my friend Christopher Scott Thompson ran a few years back at Recreational Violence in his Scottish Dirk class. It's based off of a famous Scottish Hero and his actions at a wedding.

Now, it might come as a surprise to you but in traditional Celtic and Scottish culture, sometimes not all of the Clans always got along well. Shocking, I know. So the story goes that this one Scot gentleman was invited to a wedding and, upon attendance, he noted that there were a surprising number of attendees from a rival clan. So, seizing the initiative, he unsheathes his dirk, proceeds to stab a number of them, then escapes by jumping out of the nearest castle window. Alcohol may have been involved. (Who are we kidding, they're Scots, of course alcohol was involved.)

So the "historically inspired" scenario drill goes like this: the instructor secretly designates one student to be the Scottish Hero, unknown to any of the rest of the students. The students then, armed with their non-lethal training dirks, mill about randomly within the class area (consuming alcohol is optional but, well, recommended when studying Scottish Martial Arts ). At some random time determined by the Scottish Hero, he unsheathes his training dirk, proceeds to stab as many people as he can before they return the favor, and then makes his escape out of the pre-designated "window."

Many of the Heroes made the mistake of trying to stab too many of the "rival clan" before making their escape and so failed to escape.

Take the initiative.
Use weapons.
Run as soon as possible.
Alcohol is probably involved.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

It's the "if taken to the ground" part that is the key. As I just wrote, it's really hard to prevent a takedown if the only goal is just to get both people in a tangled heap on the floor, particularly these days with MMA becoming such a mainstay in our culture. This is why I, personally, recommend that SD advocates have at least some portion of ground grappling in their training mix. It doesn't have to be their goal, their primary modus operandi, or their specialty. But the fact is that there's a pretty significant chance that the opponent is at least familiar enough with the concept of ground grappling to think he might try to drag the defender down and the defender needs to have enough training and experience to, at the minimum, know how to safely stymie the attack, disengage the opponent, and safely return to standing. You just can't assume you won't hit the floor.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

While focusing strictly on ground fighting is clearly a blind spot for anyone interested in genuine self defense, I frankly don't understand why it's not equally obvious that SOME ground fighting skills are necessary. I said in another one of the threads regarding BJJ that, IMO, defense is easier to learn than offense on the mat. It wouldn't take a black belt in BJJ to be "competent" and comfortable on the ground. Training in a good school a few times per week for a year or two is all it would take to become a solid blue belt.

 

[ballen0351]

I can cite at least one instance I know of personally where ground grappling worked just fine against multiples.

Details?

 

[ballen0351]

While focusing strictly on ground fighting is clearly a blind spot for anyone interested in genuine self defense, I frankly don't understand why it's not equally obvious that SOME ground fighting skills are necessary. I said in another one of the threads regarding BJJ that, IMO, defense is easier to learn than offense on the mat. It wouldn't take a black belt in BJJ to be "competent" and comfortable on the ground. Training in a good school a few times per week for a year or two is all it would take to become a solid blue belt.

I don't think anyone disagrees that you need to know some ground training. The issue is some here seem to think the only ground game in town is BJJ. That's just not the case. Goju has grappling and ground elements. Are they on par to go down with a BJJ student? No but BJJ standup isn't on par with Goju so pick your posion.

 

[lklawson]

Details?

Here it is in his own words:

Hey, check this out, I was in an actual streetfight!

​

Woo hoo.


Anyway, here's the details - was out with a friend of mine at a club in DC.
We're done and it's taking forever to get the buddy's Benz out of the garage,
so he's cursing and bitching at the attendant. I tell him to stop, calm down.
He was drunk; I was lit. So, in a moment of anger, he slams his hand down on
some dude's Expedition that was parked there. Later, the owner comes back and
he's a black guy weighing about 250lbs of bodybuilder bulk at probably 5'9 and
his friend with him looks to run about 190 or 195 and is maybe a little taller.


So, the attendant settles his beef by saying "that guy over there hit your
car." Needless to say, both of these fools went right after him, got up in his
face, were yelling, posturing, etc.


Here's where things get ugly. My friend won't keep his mouth shut. He's
talking back, talking ****, cursing at these two negroes who are obviously
looking to fight. I'm standing to the side of them on about 10 on the mellowed
out scale, not looking to do ****, just get the hell out of there before this
gets ugly. But, my guy won't shut up. So, they freakin start smacking him,
hit him a couple times, get him down and **** like that. So, I intervened
essentially to try to make peace and of course, they both come after me. My
goal is to get them off of him, no more no less, and so I retreat tactically
but take a shot from the littler one on the cheek. **** was happening way too
fast for my physical condition. For now, the action is over. My dude beats a
retreat across the street and these guys start talking **** to him from our
side of the street. I'm thinking of taking a flanking shot at the guy who hit
me and am moving in his direction. My buddy is across the street, safe for
now.


So, what does he do? He starts talking back to them. They run across the
street after him and I am, at this point, wondering if I should just let him
get his ****ing *** kicked. But, being the good friend that I am, I trudge
across to help. Once they see me coming up, they disengage from kicking him in
the head and come after me. I was backing up because, ****, I couldn't much
see totally straight, and the littler guy starts trying to take swings. I duck
and cover on him, but slipped on the street due to the clinch shoving and the
fact that he had sneakers and I was in dress shoes. So, from my knees, I tied
up his legs as he was trying to kick me and worked my way to his lapels. He
was unable to hit me but his buddy immediately began running around to my head
to try to kick me. So, I put a modified spider guard out there and spun to N/S
on the first one and used my legs to block the big guy and to hold distance
with him. The other guy couldn't do **** because my head was covered in his
chest between my arms and I had him pulled onto me as a shield. After 10 or so
seconds of them getting nowhere, they disengaged and I let the guy go. No
further attack ensued.


I learned a few things from this:


1) don't go out with people who don't know when to keep their mouths shut. Had
he simply walked away or talked away, this **** wouldn't have happened.


2) fighting while high is hard to do. I literally did not have sufficient
reaction time nor could I generate the power to do much damage in a fist fight.
These guys swung wildly and did not hit particularly hard. I took a square
shot on the face and was unfazed by it, except for some soreness the next day.


3) Jiu Jitsu works. Period. Without the knowledge on how to use guard, even in
a sport JJ class, this would have been really ugly. I came out with a ripped
shirt, my friend was close to getting sent to the hospital. And, I don't mean
Japanese JJ, I mean BJJ.


4) the ground is not a bad place to be in a multiple opponent encounter. I was
safer there, took less risk, less damage, than I did while upright, even
defending against 2 people who were much larger, faster, and more violent than
I was. When you have 450lbs of guys trying to swarm you in a fairly
coordinated fashion and you are not on 11 as far as violence goes, it is very
difficult to stay upright, and especially when you aren't dressed properly for
it. My shoes had no traction. So, I let the earth cover my back and let one
guy serve as a shield.


Streetfights are very fast and chaotic. If you're not ready and you don't have
a plan and you can't count on your people, avoid them. Had I been sober or in
fighting shape, I am fairly sure I could have taken both of these guys assuming
no one else jumped in for them. In retrospect, I probably should have attacked
immediately and gone for a collar choke, takedown to mount to rear naked, or a
kimura from guard, but I had to watch out for guy #2 and to attempt to get him
to stop beating the hell out of my friend. Had I had a JJ classmate with me,
we'd have won, no doubt, but I wasn't with one of those guys. These dudes
fought smart together, always getting 2 on 1, then when I showed up, going 2 on
1 against me, so that they always had numerical advantage. Fighting is about
initiative - they took it and we never got it back. I really wanted to
blindside the smaller guy after he hit me, but my friend could not keep his
mouth shut long enough for me to even start running at the damned guy. Oh
well. Anyone got any comments?

​

Trav
​

Yes, alcohol was involved. Shocking, I know.

Also of note was that the two attackers seemed to be looking for a fight and practiced at fighting as a team.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Chris Parker]

Just out of interest, how long did you do it for and how long ago was it?

You're just trying to make me feel old now, aren't you? I was involved while living in Mildura in the early 90's for near-onto 3 years.

We all know opinions on sparring but you do remember it is basically just a drill and not meant to represent violence in a completely realistic way don't you. Its longer and more drawn out and meant to give the practitioners a way to practice dealing with different attacks and combinations in a continuous, unscripted way, and learning to place one attacker in front of another is a tactic that does help and is very practical. Oh and the term nothing is just plain wrong unless it is in reference to the sparring in the video having nothing to do with tournament point sparring. I have experienced real violence, real violence is usually committed in a flash and often one sided and unfortunately on one occasion I allowed it to be drawn out and paid dearly for it and it wasn't because I tried to spar him (which I didn't).

So, if it's "just a drill and not meant to represent violence in a completely realistic way", why did you call out Tony when he commented the same, saying "Looks can be deceiving, especially when you don't know what you're looking at"?

Oh, and I stand by my comments... there was nothing there that resembled actual violence in any way, shape, or form at all. If you just want to use it to get some endurance training, or awareness of a wider environment than a single opponent, it's great. But it shouldn't be mistaken for anything like an analogue of reality.

I take my list from a variety of sources including past training and common sense. But my favorite source comes from a drill/scenario that my friend Christopher Scott Thompson ran a few years back at Recreational Violence in his Scottish Dirk class. It's based off of a famous Scottish Hero and his actions at a wedding.

Now, it might come as a surprise to you but in traditional Celtic and Scottish culture, sometimes not all of the Clans always got along well. Shocking, I know. So the story goes that this one Scot gentleman was invited to a wedding and, upon attendance, he noted that there were a surprising number of attendees from a rival clan. So, seizing the initiative, he unsheathes his dirk, proceeds to stab a number of them, then escapes by jumping out of the nearest castle window. Alcohol may have been involved. (Who are we kidding, they're Scots, of course alcohol was involved.)

So the "historically inspired" scenario drill goes like this: the instructor secretly designates one student to be the Scottish Hero, unknown to any of the rest of the students. The students then, armed with their non-lethal training dirks, mill about randomly within the class area (consuming alcohol is optional but, well, recommended when studying Scottish Martial Arts ). At some random time determined by the Scottish Hero, he unsheathes his training dirk, proceeds to stab as many people as he can before they return the favor, and then makes his escape out of the pre-designated "window."

Many of the Heroes made the mistake of trying to stab too many of the "rival clan" before making their escape and so failed to escape.

Take the initiative.
Use weapons.
Run as soon as possible.
Alcohol is probably involved.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Ha, as I said, mate, I didn't disagree with your list (I would have added one, that's all), just the idea of hierarchy as presented... I just don't think it's quite as clean cut as that, other than escape (running) being the most optimal tactic. Thing is, to get to that point, you might have to go through a range of the others... or come back to them. Even in our (shockingly alcohol fuelled) Scotsman's tale, running was only achieved after other tactics were employed.

 

[Dirty Dog]

In TKD, one of the reasons stated for chambering the punch the way we do is that your elbow goes back, which allows you to strike a target behind you with that arm.

*facepalm*

If this is actually what your instructors are teaching, rather than a misunderstanding on your part, I'd strongly suggest finding a different school.

Deep chambers, with the fist on the hip, are pretty much exclusively the realm of poomsae, not of fighting. However, even in poomsae, it's rarely an elbow strike.
Let's look at one example.

Look at the body when the punch is chambered. Note that the body is moving forward as the elbow is brought back to the chambered position. Now ask yourself exactly how much power this putative elbow strike would have generated.

The motions for delivering a rearward elbow strike and chambering a punch are similar, but not identical. The body mechanics that go along with the two are, however, completely different.

 

[jks9199]

Firearms training has a LOT of critical knowledge and skills that should be imported directly into any SD/RBSD curriculum. One small example is how to deal with tunnel vision and "scan" for threats during adrenal dumb.

Lots of other juicy goodness too.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Those principles aren't and shouldn't be limited to firearms training.

 

[lklawson]

Ha, as I said, mate, I didn't disagree with your list (I would have added one, that's all), just the idea of hierarchy as presented... I just don't think it's quite as clean cut as that, other than escape (running) being the most optimal tactic. Thing is, to get to that point, you might have to go through a range of the others... or come back to them. Even in our (shockingly alcohol fuelled) Scotsman's tale, running was only achieved after other tactics were employed.

Oh, I'm not arguing, really. Just wanted to share one of my all time favorite "drills." I mean, honestly, it puts a real different spin on it to move from the usual concept of "multiple opponents" to a drunken mass murder attempt.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[RTKDCMB]

So, if it's "just a drill and not meant to represent violence in a completely realistic way", why did you call out Tony when he commented the same, saying "Looks can be deceiving, especially when you don't know what you're looking at"?

It was the tournament point sparring quote.

 

[RTKDCMB]

That doesn't make sense. Why on earth would you do that every time? Rear-elbows are for when there's a target to hit and is wasted energy and dramatic telegraphing of technique if there isn't.

It seems likely that there is another reason.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

To be fair he did say it was "one of the reasons" not the only reason.

 

[Rich Parsons]

In my experience, fighting multiple people sucks. It is when I would usually get hurt or have an injury that was more than a bruise.

I like the list provided

The best strategies for dealing with multiples, in order from least to best:

• Take the initiative (attack first)
• Bring equal or greater number of friends (why is it only the bad guys that are allowed to have "multiples?")
• Superior weapons
• run-fu

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I might have some variation of this. If you can attack first, then bring the violence to end it now. If you just counter punch or throw then it turns into a came of the wolves versus the bear and sooner or later the wolves tire out the bear. Yet if the bear stumps or rips open a wolf then the other wolves stop and think. This is when the posturing to ask for further fighting can work, but usually gets you hurt. And the Run-Fu works well. If they are leaving let them leave. Back off and give them space to get their fallen comrade.

Note: Bringing this type of violence usually means a few days in the hospital or casts or what have you. This will bring the attention of the Police.


As to being on the ground, that is the last place I ever would want to be. Not because of some idea, but from person experience. I did not like having someone try to place kick my head. I also did not like someone actually punting my rib cage. Talk about blinding white light of pain when the rib came out of place. Luckily it went back into place almost instantly as I moved to stop a second one.

I used to consider four people a fair fight. One on one was just a test of skills and intent. Two on one , I could keep one busy or behind the other one with movement. Three on one (unless they fought well as a team) they most often interfered with each other. In all cases I almost always got my hands on one of them and they would go down. Violence. Aggression.

At four on one, I could not get close, and they usually would try to get in and get out. That being said, a group of six guys once tried to hit one of my female employees. I stop checked the punch as it was still behind his shoulder. I then grabbed his throat and squeezed until he could not breath. I told the others to leave and I would let their friend go. The called my bluff. I let him go after he turned white the second time. He dropped. The other five attacked. They attacked well. They knew where to go as a team to bind up my limbs . While I had four going for my limbs and the fifth coming into hit freely, I pulled up both legs and double kicked the puncher back. We all went down. They were not ready to deal with that much mass for those holding my arms. They guys on the legs had not secured them yet.

I got lucky. A couple of guys I never met, walked in and grabbed one each and started beating on them. That left me with four on the ground. We went up and down a lot. I hurt them, they hurt me, including the punt to the ribs. When I go up and was being tackled again we all went through a 8'x10' glass window. Once again I got lucky and tried to avoid it and hit the window sill where my should popped the window out. I rolled taking a few with as my momentum could not be stopped with 3 or 4 guys on me. I rolled and scrambled away on hands and feet while they just hit. The glass fell and broke over them. Safety glass cuts everywhere.

With more than 5 usually not all of them want to fight. They are along for the ride. So you take one out early and make them think When they hesitate their other members see and feel it and hold back a little wonder if they have support.

In my state, multiple people is a threat with deadly force. On the ground, shoes are a deadly weapon. self defense laws state you can respond with the same level of threat and weapon as long as you do not show extreme emotion. I am not sure about the emotion part as usually I am afraid.

Anything can work once or twice. In general, I have more movement and options to flee while standing. I can bring the violence and others see it versus it being in a pile of people and it not being noticed.



As others have stated as well. Awareness and being alert are important. Do not visit bad places. Avoid bad people and situations. Leave and let them call you names. It is easier and cheaper than a night in the hospital or the police station asking for a lawyer.

 

[Tenacious_Red]

I have been in a 3 vs 1 "fight" i was trying to arrest one and his two cousins started attacking me. I won but only because I was just much larger and stronger then the three they were drunk and basically had no skill and were not armed. Had any of them had a knife I'd have been stabbed a lot.

"

I've been in a similar position, and I found that there was tugging and pulling and full force pushes into different directions (not so much striking from one as the other) and by keeping my balance I was able to shuffle through it (with the striking one at least) until assistance arrived. I almost want to say have someone climb on your back and/or someone kicking your leg while trying to defend yourself. But it doesn't guarantee they won't have a weapon as you mentioned, which WILL turn out horrible. BTW I am 5'8" and the two women were about 5'6"/5'5"...a lot different if it were two 6' men I'm sure.

Also if you have ever wrestled with a group of young kids like your children, it's actually interesting to see how they will team up against you...take notes! haha.