Wolf pack training

[Black Bear]

Mr. Prime Minister is correct. It is silly to categorically regard these things as unethical when there's no reason to do so. Some ppl are just oversimplifying and making unwarranted assumptions about the context.

 

[loki09789]

Thank you, Madame Chair Person.

 

[Black Bear]

Sure.

 

[loki09789]

That's not fair:

"MOOOOM! BB is using attachments to pick on me again!"


PM... well, the PM (NOT THE PP - remember the tv show Dinosaurs?)

 

[OULobo]

I don't see why there is an ethical conflict anyway. It is inherent in martial arts that the knowledge is of aggresive/offensive nature and can be abused in inapropriate situations. Most traditional arts involve weapons that could be used to rob or kill. This is no different, it's just in a tactical sense instead of a physical weapon or tool.

 

[Black Bear]

Yeah, now that I think of it they're one small step removed from folks who wonder why a sane person would train in martial arts or fighting at all. After all, why would you want to be able to HURT people? :O

 

[digitalronin]

Its a very useful drill, unfortunately most schools teach one to one sparring and ignore the other relational posibilities being as follows:

- one to one

- one to many

- many to many

- Many to one
​

each having a real world chance of occuring and i have personally been involved in each one working in security. Working alone at a small mall I had to break up a brewing fight between two punks (one to many). Fortunately they didnt double team me. At the local dance hall we would have to take out guests who became drunk and combative (many to many).

peace,

 

[Rich Parsons]

Its a very useful drill, unfortunately most schools teach one to one sparring and ignore the other relational posibilities being as follows:

- one to one

- one to many

- many to many

- Many to one
​

each having a real world chance of occuring and i have personally been involved in each one working in security. Working alone at a small mall I had to break up a brewing fight between two punks (one to many). Fortunately they didnt double team me. At the local dance hall we would have to take out guests who became drunk and combative (many to many).

peace,

Hmmmm, so you mean not all fights are honorable between two people where everyone sets back and watches while the two fighters go at it? You mean that people do hold others down while others kick or hit them? You mean people do hold or take jackets/shirts over heads while others doing the beating?

Thinking about multiple attackers and practicing against such is a good idea, in my opinion.


:asian:

 

[Feisty Mouse]

We have done a little of this, in one of my classes. I think it's really useful to get people (i.e. students like me) thinking about different scenarios. I can completely imagine a group self-defense scenario. I go out dancing at a club with two girlfriends, one who also trains in MA, one who does not, and cannot run. We are attacked by one or two guys, maybe armed, maybe not. Do we flee and leave our non-running friend? How do we coordinate what we do?

But "real scenarios" like that aren't the reason I enjoy the many-on-one, many-on-many scene. It's complicated, lots of things are happening, you have to keep track of what is going on, regroup.

 

[OULobo]

I am glad to see this thread come back. I guess I want to see who here still sees training with partners against a single opponent as dishonorable, unethical or useless. I do restate my arguement that the arts are for self-defense, and that, as the saying goes, sometimes a good offense is the best defense. Using all your available advantages is all-important when defending yourself, and one of those advantages would be working with companions to eliminate the threat. That being the case, it is important to learn how to be efficient and effective when working in unison with a comrade. The best way to learn this is to practice it.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I think it's a great idea. Especially with training weapons moving around, it's so important to watch what's going on, verbally communicate, etc.

I think the "dishonorable" idea about it is pretty ridiculous. Maybe my example of a small group of women, unarmed, etc., being attacked by one or multiple guys might make people think differently - especially if one or several of your group are unarmed, or can't do certain things.

 

[kenpo tiger]

We have begun doing more 'reality-based' training at our school - scenarios. As kenpo has many techs involving more than one attacker, it's something we're already used to, so the scenario helps to put things into a perspective one might not think of while training (see Feisty's post). We've also dabbled in wolf pack - person in the middle of the pack has scarves in his/her belt, the pack has to attack (using kick pad body shields) slowly and attempt to grab a scarf until all are gone. If the defender kicks, punches, or otherwise stops you, you retreat and stay out of the action for a three count. I hate that drill -- I'll admit it -- but I understand its application and I'm happy we're doing it. I just hope I'll never need it. kt

 

[digitalronin]

Hmmmm, so you mean not all fights are honorable between two people where everyone sets back and watches while the two fighters go at it? You mean that people do hold others down while others kick or hit them? You mean people do hold or take jackets/shirts over heads while others doing the beating?

Thinking about multiple attackers and practicing against such is a good idea, in my opinion.


:asian:

huh, I totally agree with you. I was pointing out how most schools fail to teach the other possible situations. AT some point u have to go beyond the 1 on 1, go to ur nuetral corner , training. If the instructor fails to do it, then they are setting the student for a very rude wake up call when they try the arts in the street. "its better to bleed on the mat than on the pavement".

 

[digitalronin]

We have begun doing more 'reality-based' training at our school - scenarios. As kenpo has many techs involving more than one attacker, it's something we're already used to, so the scenario helps to put things into a perspective one might not think of while training (see Feisty's post). We've also dabbled in wolf pack - person in the middle of the pack has scarves in his/her belt, the pack has to attack (using kick pad body shields) slowly and attempt to grab a scarf until all are gone. If the defender kicks, punches, or otherwise stops you, you retreat and stay out of the action for a three count. I hate that drill -- I'll admit it -- but I understand its application and I'm happy we're doing it. I just hope I'll never need it. kt

nice drill. I am a former kenpo student, well if i find a good teacher i'll return. Anyways a three man drill we did at the school was to have two students with focus mitts and a defender in the middle. defender will start punching one set of mitts until the the other pair is clapped. Defender will then start on the second pair of mitts. Its a very simple back and forth drill. Movement on part of the mitt holders can be added next, so the defender will not always know where the next set targets will be. I think the purpose is to break the tempo and focus of the defender.

peace

 

[Rich Parsons]

I am glad to see this thread come back. I guess I want to see who here still sees training with partners against a single opponent as dishonorable, unethical or useless. I do restate my arguement that the arts are for self-defense, and that, as the saying goes, sometimes a good offense is the best defense. Using all your available advantages is all-important when defending yourself, and one of those advantages would be working with companions to eliminate the threat. That being the case, it is important to learn how to be efficient and effective when working in unison with a comrade. The best way to learn this is to practice it.

Yes I was involved with a drill where a few people were put into a confined space and a large group put on the outside. The first thing I did was to break the rules and use two knives to defend myself instead of just one. The second was I tried to call dirctions, for when a shift was occuring to let others know which way I was moving or the offensive was moving. Yes I did get my shots in as well get shots scored on me. Many people were confused with the duel weapon and others would then try to team up on others as easier targets. While others tried to sneak up from the side on me, while others kept me busy. All sound tactics. To work as a team requires practice.


:asian:

 

[digitalronin]

We have done a little of this, in one of my classes. I think it's really useful to get people (i.e. students like me) thinking about different scenarios. I can completely imagine a group self-defense scenario. I go out dancing at a club with two girlfriends, one who also trains in MA, one who does not, and cannot run. We are attacked by one or two guys, maybe armed, maybe not. Do we flee and leave our non-running friend? How do we coordinate what we do?

But "real scenarios" like that aren't the reason I enjoy the many-on-one, many-on-many scene. It's complicated, lots of things are happening, you have to keep track of what is going on, regroup.

Why cant she run? Too much alchohol? High heels? I hate to blame the victim, but in a case where a person loses of his/her defensive abilities it may be warrented. If you really want to get drunk do it at home. Leave them high heels in the closet when clubbing. I would say flee screaming, call the cops, get a good description of the punks especially if they are armed. A club incident just occured in chicago (3 dead)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...18.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=2&cset=true

The more experienced bouncer was nfl type huge. The cops are still looking for the punks that did it. My guess the place didnt have any security cameras.

 

[OULobo]

Why cant she run? Too much alchohol? High heels? I hate to blame the victim, but in a case where a person loses of his/her defensive abilities it may be warrented. If you really want to get drunk do it at home. Leave them high heels in the closet when clubbing. I would say flee screaming, call the cops, get a good description of the punks especially if they are armed. A club incident just occured in chicago (3 dead)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...18.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=2&cset=true

The more experienced bouncer was nfl type huge. The cops are still looking for the punks that did it. My guess the place didnt have any security cameras.

How about if she is handicapped? There is no reason she should be scared to go out and have a good time if she has lost those "defensive abilities".

 

[digitalronin]

How about if she is handicapped? There is no reason she should be scared to go out and have a good time if she has lost those "defensive abilities".

I Did consider this, but did not have a good answer for it. The worst outcome doesnt look good. It may prove a fatal decision to help out the friend, since it provides even less time to put distance between u and the thugs. The darwinian approach would say to sacrafice ur friend for the sake of saving ur own ***. Theres are going to ramifications either way. Unfortunately we are talking about a very nasty scenerio. The more common incidents at clubs tend to be drunk males, boyfriend/girlfriends fights. Be informed about the clubs u visit, some develope bad reps and those are the ones to avoid.

Perhaps an investigation of how the military handles rescuing injured soldiers from hostile situations may be good for researching and practicing.

 

[digitalronin]

Its a very useful drill, unfortunately most schools teach one to one sparring and ignore the other relational posibilities being as follows:

- one to one

- one to many

- many to many

- Many to one
​

each having a real world chance of occuring and i have personally been involved in each one working in security. Working alone at a small mall I had to break up a brewing fight between two punks (one to many). Fortunately they didnt double team me. At the local dance hall we would have to take out guests who became drunk and combative (many to many).

peace,

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Why cant she run? Too much alchohol? High heels? I hate to blame the victim, but in a case where a person loses of his/her defensive abilities it may be warrented. If you really want to get drunk do it at home. Leave them high heels in the closet when clubbing. I would say flee screaming, call the cops, get a good description of the punks especially if they are armed. A club incident just occured in chicago (3 dead)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050108clubshoot,1,6439818.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=2&cset=true

The more experienced bouncer was nfl type huge. The cops are still looking for the punks that did it. My guess the place didnt have any security cameras.

...but you do blame the victim? Am I supposed to leave my friend to be ...whatever by someone or someones, without any attempt to help her?

I'd rather train to try and keep all of my friends alive.