Wing Chun vs MMA
- Thread starter abe_tz
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If I remember correctly it was the county/region. But "Wing Chun" is the name of a girl, or a hall at Shaolin.....take your pick from the stories. The name had to come from somewhere. One story is as good as another. The poster asked why anyone would think that White Crane was a root art of Wing Chun. I told him why. I think it is as plausible an idea as anything else.
Ugh, yeah, you're right... I was just having a conversation with someone about the ambiguity of the term "city" in Chinese. You see, Yongchun County is under the administration of Quanzhou City, which sounds backward to Americans.
No one knows anymore. But I'm quite certain it has nothing to do with Shaolin. The "Southern Shaolin" monasteries have fake histories. There was no such thing. The original is up in Henan Province and I've spent a number of years studying there and in the surrounding villages that are sprinkled about the mountains, researching the styles of the area and their histories. Never once came across any mention of the term Yongchun.
Nowadays they do have Wing Chun there, but what it is, is the teachers watching tutorial videos on Youku.com then turning around to teach it. WC has nothing to do with Shaolin.
I like the idea that whole "burning of Shaolin" story was just a cover story. That it might have actually been the burning of one of the union halls where the rebels groups were headquartered. "Chi Sim" was also possibly just a cover story for one of the rebel leaders that was hiding form the government and using a false identity to avoid capture. It has been said that the primary martial art used by Lee Mau Man and a large part of the rebel groups at that time was White Crane. So here is another story connecting White Crane and Wing Chun. Since this connection comes from several different angles, it makes the idea of White Crane as a "root" art of Wing Chun as plausible or even more plausible than other theories.
Apart from the fact that white crane doesn't work like wing chun in any way.
I would say that the whole thing, rebel groups, shaolin, red boats is all highly suspect.
All we really know is that Leung Jan from Foshan taught something in the 19th century that later became wing chun. Beyond that we don't know anything.
The whole rebellion during this period, the rebel groups, Lee Man Mau, the burning of the Fine Jade Hall, the ban of the Opera performances on the Red Boats for 15 years....this is all a documented part of Chinese history. The Wing Chun connection is the part that is not well documented.
Googling these all I can find are wing chun related sources
Where is it in this list?
List of rebellions in China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Southern China was a real hot-bed of rebellion! The Wing Chun history is tied to the Tai Ping rebellion and a movement that grew out of it called the Hung Gam (Red Turban) Rebellion. The Red Turbans were led by Lee Man-Mao, and was formed largely of Opera Performers from the Red Boats.
Apart from the fact that white crane doesn't work like wing chun in any way.
---I would disagree. Any connection to White Crane would have been about 150 years ago. Both White Crane and Wing Chun have evolved in different ways since that time. So sure, they no longer share the same power generation methods. But they still share some similarities. White Crane has evolved and split into different versions including "Eating Crane", "Screaming Crane" etc. But it is thought that Fukien White Crane is the closest to that "ancestral" version.
Here is Sifu Lee Kong demonstrating his White Crane. I see similarities in structure and techniques. I see Tan Sau, Gan Sau, Biu Sau, Huen Sau, etc.
---I would disagree. Any connection to White Crane would have been about 150 years ago. Both White Crane and Wing Chun have evolved in different ways since that time. So sure, they no longer share the same power generation methods. But they still share some similarities. White Crane has evolved and split into different versions including "Eating Crane", "Screaming Crane" etc. But it is thought that Fukien White Crane is the closest to that "ancestral" version.
Here is Sifu Lee Kong demonstrating his White Crane. I see similarities in structure and techniques. I see Tan Sau, Gan Sau, Biu Sau, Huen Sau, etc.
Source?
Everyone likes to imagine that they were at the centre of things historically, MA system creators and history writers no different..majority of Chinese village peasants, if involved at all, would be running about the countryside in militias either looting raping and pillaging or trying to prevent looting, rapingand pillaging. Not much time for red boats, operas and romance I would think. Not much time for wing chun.
Imagine something like Helmand province or Syria today, only with long spears and knives rather than AK47s. Easy to write an exciting story about it with the perspective of time and non-involvement. Not so easy if you are there.
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Second clip better, first is Sifu Sergio looking for the roots of wing chun so I would probably discount on that basis.
First clip shows no body method at all, second only very weak uncoordinated movement. He isn't doing it because he is being filmed I would guess.
Here is a better clip , watch guy with top off. Body method completely different.
If it was Sergio himself doing the demo, yeah you could discount it. But its not. Its Master Lee Kong, a very well-known White Crane teacher in Hong Kong. If you can't see the similarities with Wing Chun, that's on you not me. I think others will see what I'm talking about. With all due respect, you haven't proven to have the most "open" of minds. ;-)
Yes, what you say is true of the southern short-bridge systems, mainly the Hakka arts that Guy mentioned. They do resemble Wing Chun. The heavier, "long-bridge" systems with their deep horses and long punches like Hung -Gar ...not so much. And, as KPM noted, Fukien White Crane also has many WC like movements, as well as (in the case of the Yougchun branch) the same name. Moreover, although an older art, it has essentially the same legendary history as WC, just with the names and details slightly changed. It's origin legend claims that the art was founded by a woman boxer, "Qiniang" who was inspired to create the art after observing the fighting postures of a crane.
It is held that Crane boxing was widely established and better known at earlier date than WC's emergence. Based on this, it seems quite plausible that Crane boxing may have been a source for what later evolved into Wing Chun. Of course "plausible" doesn't make it so. Granted the paucity of reliable records, it's all speculation.
Information on the "Red Turban Rebellion"
http://www.scientificjournals.org/journals2009/articles/1473.pdf
A lot of good information in this blog post from Ben Judkins. Its rather long, and actually speaks against a White Crane or even Red Boat link for Wing Chun. But Ben is a historian and is sticking to the known facts as much as possible. Beyond that you have to start talking about what seems most plausible and then we are in the realm of conjecture and competing theories. I think another problem with Judkin's conclusions is that he doesn't take into account Weng Chun's history and stories at all. He seems to pin everything on Leung Jan. Anyway, kind of long but worth reading:
Hing Chao Discusses Southern Boxing, White Crane and the āEastern Theoryā of Wing Chunās Origins.
http://www.scientificjournals.org/journals2009/articles/1473.pdf
A lot of good information in this blog post from Ben Judkins. Its rather long, and actually speaks against a White Crane or even Red Boat link for Wing Chun. But Ben is a historian and is sticking to the known facts as much as possible. Beyond that you have to start talking about what seems most plausible and then we are in the realm of conjecture and competing theories. I think another problem with Judkin's conclusions is that he doesn't take into account Weng Chun's history and stories at all. He seems to pin everything on Leung Jan. Anyway, kind of long but worth reading:
Hing Chao Discusses Southern Boxing, White Crane and the āEastern Theoryā of Wing Chunās Origins.
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Thanks for that link to Ben Judkins article, KPM. It's about as good an overview of the topic of WC's origins as I have seen. One thing worth mulling over is what he said about the influence of the knives and WC's formation, and how many aspects of WC have the unmistakable quality of a fencing system.
Personally, I can't help but wonder if fencing with the old style twin-knives of the mid 19th Century might have contributed more to formation the system than what you would imagine based on the much shorter 20th Century BCD we are familiar with.
If you look at those old-style paired long knives and compare how they would have been used to the use of similar weapons in HEMA and FMA, I believe you can see a lot that could explain WCs efficient and evasive steps, emphasis on centerline parrying and deflection, forward intent, simultaneous defense and attack ...even the way we remain square to our opponent so both hands come into play. That's not something you see in pole or long weapon fencing, but you do see in double sword fencing.
Just compare tan-da or gan-da with an off-lining turn (a la LT's WT) to the side to a low or mid-level parry with rapier and poigniard. The emphasis on double-handed movement, supreme economy and efficiency, shifting center aside to evade the blade, and a certain indifference to generating excessive power (unecessary with sharp blades). It explains a lot, including some aspects of WC that don't work as well with empty handed pugilism.
Personally, I can't help but wonder if fencing with the old style twin-knives of the mid 19th Century might have contributed more to formation the system than what you would imagine based on the much shorter 20th Century BCD we are familiar with.
If you look at those old-style paired long knives and compare how they would have been used to the use of similar weapons in HEMA and FMA, I believe you can see a lot that could explain WCs efficient and evasive steps, emphasis on centerline parrying and deflection, forward intent, simultaneous defense and attack ...even the way we remain square to our opponent so both hands come into play. That's not something you see in pole or long weapon fencing, but you do see in double sword fencing.
Just compare tan-da or gan-da with an off-lining turn (a la LT's WT) to the side to a low or mid-level parry with rapier and poigniard. The emphasis on double-handed movement, supreme economy and efficiency, shifting center aside to evade the blade, and a certain indifference to generating excessive power (unecessary with sharp blades). It explains a lot, including some aspects of WC that don't work as well with empty handed pugilism.
You can find Tang Shou, Fu Shou, chain punch, Biao Xee, and YJKYM in the southern praying mantis system as well.
^^^^True! But to my eye, that looks less like Wing Chun than Lee Kong's White Crane does! But I should qualify that statement by also saying I am thinking of generic Wing Chun as a grouping and not any one specific Wing Chun lineage. It might not look anything like WSLVT, for instance. But WSLVT does not define all of Wing Chun. For that matter, Ip Man Wing Chun in general does not define all of Wing Chun either.
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