wing chun vs Karake
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ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
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Disagree. IMO, Wing Chun is far superior to traditional karate as a whole. Wing Chun makes better use of blocking, economy of motion, simultaneous striking, and continuous striking, and to include a phrase from a recent T--very high "mental clarity." Moreover, the true strength behind Wing Chun comes out when the WC practitioner has highly developed internal energy. It's not that traditional karate can't achieve these qualities, it's that Wing Chun does so on a higher level of sophistication more advanced marital skill.
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I myself a traditional karate practitioner, would want to look into a style of kung fu. Wing chun as I understand it and in talking with kung fu instructors in my locale--WC is just to stylized & sophisticated for me. Traditional karate is hard enough.
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I have enormous respect for bona-fide Wing chun.
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Hanzou
Grandmaster
While your perspective is an interesting one, I have to disagree. While Wing Chun has its pros, so does Karate. Both have their cons as well, as demonstrated in dramatic fashion in that video, but the same can be said about any martial art if we're honest with ourselves.
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
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I have to disagree. There is a hierarchy in TMA, IMHO. Karate < WC.
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As to the video, it has been roundly criticized by posters, and I concur it is hardly a good representation. As to the concept of a comparison & as a discussion starter, the vid is fine. I thought that the 'karate guy' was below par. A more dynamic karateka would have made all the difference.
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At my dojo, they don't either compare or criticize other styles, but the instructors have an unwritten respect for the ability of the serious kung fu practitioners in my locale.
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A good combat vid of Wing Chun doesn't come to mind, so that's where my suggestion for the senior's here to look into came from.
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
Speaking of challenge matches, I did have a local kung fu instructor call me out on an informal challenge match some years ago. I might be able to match him if I trained my karate on a professional intensity. But quite possibly not. Not a good match up for me so I declined. I would have rather trained under him, but to the general public he was teaching McDojo Fu.
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One of the few Wing Chun practitioners I know in the area did engage the Kung Fu instructor. The WC guy had obtained his black-belt at a larger city on the East Coast. The tale was that he was able to back up the Kung fu instructor & make him work. As to a win, the WC conceded the Kung Fu instructor was real.
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That WC practitioner had been bitten by the 'full contact' bug and wanted me to train such with him. He was a good guy & knowledgeable in kung fu as well as boxing. He put a chest protector on me and punched me real hard in the chest. Didn't feel good.
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I trained basics with him privately for a short time (not WC though), but declined FC, which I don't endorse. In his boxing vs. my karate demo exchange, I could see how I could end up using too much force when he was really doing same. Since I like to go to the head especially because boxers always expose the head so for tactical reasons, training FC is just too dangerous in my book.
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One of the few Wing Chun practitioners I know in the area did engage the Kung Fu instructor. The WC guy had obtained his black-belt at a larger city on the East Coast. The tale was that he was able to back up the Kung fu instructor & make him work. As to a win, the WC conceded the Kung Fu instructor was real.
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That WC practitioner had been bitten by the 'full contact' bug and wanted me to train such with him. He was a good guy & knowledgeable in kung fu as well as boxing. He put a chest protector on me and punched me real hard in the chest. Didn't feel good.
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I trained basics with him privately for a short time (not WC though), but declined FC, which I don't endorse. In his boxing vs. my karate demo exchange, I could see how I could end up using too much force when he was really doing same. Since I like to go to the head especially because boxers always expose the head so for tactical reasons, training FC is just too dangerous in my book.
Danny T
Senior Master
As a practitioner of wing chun and a certified full instructor I agree with Hanzou in that as much as I like wc it does have its weaknesses as all training methods do. There is no one method that is all encompassing for all situations and all environments. I have a rather high level training and skill sets in several different martial arts with shotokan being one. All of them have pros and cons.
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
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Okay. I get your general position, however I don't agree. So as a certified WC instructor, would you please point out the weaknesses of WC over say Shotokan karate, in which you have a higher level of accomplishment. I can't say in my area where I know any TMA practitioner who has cross trained in both WC or Shotokan continuosly. Practitioners in my area generally evolve into one style by nationality for the most part.
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I'm very interested in a comparative viewpoint such are yours.....
Vajramusti
Master Black Belt
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Its a silly discussion. If someone loves karate I don't argue with them.I don't impose my views on others.I have done some Okinawan and wado ryu karate- walked away from them when I ran into top flight wing chun sifu (Augustine Fong in Tucson). My sihing Danny Chan in his
competing days won every open tournament( mostly karate practitioners) with his wing chun skills.
I respect great achievements in any of the major martial arts.
'nuff said.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
.........
I thought we were just talking about that video.
I still find the ground fighting hilariously bad. Like two children fighting over a cookie that mommy dropped. All those years of training erased once they're off their feet.
Truly amazing, and pretty frightening when you think about it.
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I thought we were just talking about that video.
I still find the ground fighting hilariously bad. Like two children fighting over a cookie that mommy dropped. All those years of training erased once they're off their feet.
Truly amazing, and pretty frightening when you think about it.
I've seen the same from strikers. They get into a heated match at a tournament, and the arms start flailing.
Jake104
Black Belt
The real question here that I think everybody is dying to know is.... Who would win in a IP Man vs Mr. Miyagi death match? If we knew that answer, then I think the Karate vs Wing Chun debate would be settled once and for all? Too bad we will never know.. RIP IP Man and Pat Morita!
Vajramusti
Master Black Belt
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simple answer-Morita was an actor. Ip Man was not
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
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You "Ip" correct.... Can't argue here....
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Mr. Miyagi was written and modeled on Chōjun Miyagi (宮城 長順, Miyagi Chōjun, April 25, 1888—October 8, 1953) according to the screen writer who wrote the first karatekid movie.
But I seriously doubt that you could get Ip Man and the real Mr. Miyagi to death match.
I don't think this is a bad thing so long as they are actually trying to fight with the fighting system. I don't like when people show videos stating that "this is karate, kung fu, tkd" and when I look at it, I don't see any of the techniques of that fighting system being used.
Just because someone takes kung fu, karate, tkd, bjj, or whatever the fighting system is, doesn't mean that they are going to be good at it. I know I've shown a few videos of my opponent getting the best of me and I don't mind because I don't claim to be an expert. I still consider myself to be a beginner. For some reason when people think that just because someone takes a martial arts that they are supposed to be this outstanding fighter by default. Some people think that just because someone has a black belt rank that the person is going to be an excellent fighter.
I don't mind seeing someone doing poorly at using their fighting system so long as it's not presented as "This fighting system sucks" and this video of this person who has no fighting skills is the proof. We see car wrecks everyday and not once do we say "This car sucks and this accident is proof of it."
A Martial art fighting system should be though of like a car. When the car (martial art fighting system) crashes it's not the car that sucks, it's the driver (practitioner) did a poor job of driving (fighting). Please don't debate on this statement. It's not an absolute and nor denial that there are systems out there that are useless by design. Just like there are some cars out there that are useless by design based on today's standards. (The ford Model T for example)
Well if both are horrible at fighting on the ground then there's nothing to really lose since both are really bad at it.
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