Wing Chun Punch (foundational vs boundary)

[Danny T]

I don’t dig very deeply into lineage... outside of occasional helpful context for application intent behind movement, it doesn’t make me a better fighter.

Wish I could Like this times 10.

 

[Martial D]

I haven’t heard that term before but is that a deal breaker for you?

No not at all. I just see that style in some of the things you do.

Really don’t put much stock in lineage but have learned a lot from the system I study

Me either. Not convinced any one 'traditional' style of WC is objectively better than any other.

 

[pdg]

- Bottom three knuckles align with the forearm “pipe” naturally and is well supported.
- Bottom three knuckles avoid injury to higher priority pointer finger knuckles.

Bottom two knuckles (ring and little) are connected to the weakest bones.

I've broken my ring metatarsal before with punching - I'll only aim to use index and middle knuckle now

 

[lansao]

Bottom two knuckles (ring and little) are connected to the weakest bones.

I've broken my ring metatarsal before with punching - I'll only aim to use index and middle knuckle now

Sounds awful, must have sucked. Bare knuckle?

 

[pdg]

Sounds awful, must have sucked. Bare knuckle?

Yup, bare Knuckle, vertical fist, slightly upward hook (just over halfway between hook and uppercut) to jaw.

Must've hit my ring knuckle almost exclusively.

I'd never intentionally bring the smaller two knuckles into play now - bare knuckle (pads, boards, whatever) I'll be aiming for middle finger knuckle with a bias to index finger - same with gloves too.

 

[lansao]

Yup, bare Knuckle, vertical fist, slightly upward hook (just over halfway between hook and uppercut) to jaw.

Must've hit my ring knuckle almost exclusively.

I'd never intentionally bring the smaller two knuckles into play now - bare knuckle (pads, boards, whatever) I'll be aiming for middle finger knuckle with a bias to index finger - same with gloves too.

Ack, that sucks. Hope it’s healing/has healed alright for you.

 

[pdg]

Ack, that sucks. Hope it’s healing/has healed alright for you.

Should be healed by now - it happened 27 years ago

 

[Cephalopod]

Bottom two knuckles (ring and little) are connected to the weakest bones.

I've broken my ring metatarsal before with punching - I'll only aim to use index and middle knuckle now

I would love to hear more personal accounts on this subject.

I train wing chun punches (connecting with the bottom 3 knuckles) regularly on the wall bag (filled with 1/4" ball bearings) understanding that this builds bone density and trains correct alignment of the metacarpals so that they don't get impacted obliquely. I have heard poor alignment can be a contributing factor to 'boxer's fracture'.

But, in truth, I have never belted full throttle into a hard target such as a jawbone or worse, an elbow. I tend to use an open hand when targeting the jaw and have been lucky enough not to badly connect my ungloved fist with other hard and knobby body parts.

So I don't have much real-time knowledge of how much of a beating my fist can withstand.
How about you folks?

 

[pdg]

I would love to hear more personal accounts on this subject.

I train wing chun punches (connecting with the bottom 3 knuckles) regularly on the wall bag (filled with 1/4" ball bearings) understanding that this builds bone density and trains correct alignment of the metacarpals so that they don't get impacted obliquely. I have heard poor alignment can be a contributing factor to 'boxer's fracture'.

But, in truth, I have never belted full throttle into a hard target such as a jawbone or worse, an elbow. I tend to use an open hand when targeting the jaw and have been lucky enough not to badly connect my ungloved fist with other hard and knobby body parts.

So I don't have much real-time knowledge of how much of a beating my fist can withstand.
How about you folks?

I think a lot of it is how much you put in the punch to begin with.

Chain punching (or similar movements) just don't have the impact of a proper cross or hook so carry less risk in the first place.

I'll quite happily hit something hard (wooden board, bone) concentrating around my middle knuckle, but no way with the others.

I'll do a graphical representation in a minute

 

[Poppity]

I would love to hear more personal accounts on this subject.

I train wing chun punches (connecting with the bottom 3 knuckles) regularly on the wall bag (filled with 1/4" ball bearings) understanding that this builds bone density and trains correct alignment of the metacarpals so that they don't get impacted obliquely. I have heard poor alignment can be a contributing factor to 'boxer's fracture'.

But, in truth, I have never belted full throttle into a hard target such as a jawbone or worse, an elbow. I tend to use an open hand when targeting the jaw and have been lucky enough not to badly connect my ungloved fist with other hard and knobby body parts.

So I don't have much real-time knowledge of how much of a beating my fist can withstand.
How about you folks?

About six months ago I was sparring with a fellow class mate in 4oz gloves and used my elbow to block a strike and his stike must have chipped something round my elbow as I could not lean on it at all for a few weeks and even now every now and then something catches and it hurts when leaned on.

 

[Poppity]

His knuckles from a vertical strike were fine... Which was nice for him and a bit of karma for me.

 

[DaveB]

Oh we definitely do! I posted what my traditional SLT looks like in that other thread. My lineage comes through Sam Kwok, 2 steps off, and the Sifus down to me definitely added their own touches. What's your lineage?

Not to mention Ive been binning it all and rebuilding it from the ground up through MMA training and hard pressure testing. My WC doesn't really look like anyone's WC anymore, although the guys over at Alan Orr's school are doing something similar only on a much much higher level.

I'll tell you one thing though that ive learned, and this is applicable even if your only goal is to understand your own WC as well as you possibly can; Go try other things, even in small doses. You'll find yourself getting lightbulbs going off about your own WC you would otherwise never see.

How is that going MD?

I'm especially curious how applicable you are finding chi sau in the new environment?

 

[Eric_H]

A few additional thoughts/examples.

Hi Lansao, while I think your point has some merit in that the WC punch can be used as a building block to both understand the system and then how and when break the rules, your demo is a bit off putting to me as it lacks basic body method. Is WC relatively new for you?

 

[lansao]

Hi Lansao, while I think your point has some merit in that the WC punch can be used as a building block to both understand the system and then how and when break the rules, your demo is a bit off putting to me as it lacks basic body method. Is WC relatively new for you?

Not new to me but weird to hear that. What body method aren't you seeing?

 

[Martial D]

How is that going MD?

I'm especially curious how applicable you are finding chi sau in the new environment?

Chi Sau? Just the sensitivity. I often get advantageous positions through hand fighting in a standing clinch or ground grappling I'd like to attribute to those years of doing chi sau, but I can't be totally sure I wouldn't be doing that anyway.

Mostly my WC has boiled down to striking and hand fighting, but most of all strategy and application.

 

[DaveB]

Chi Sau? Just the sensitivity. I often get advantageous positions through hand fighting in a standing clinch or ground grappling I'd like to attribute to those years of doing chi sau, but I can't be totally sure I wouldn't be doing that anyway.

Mostly my WC has boiled down to striking and hand fighting, but most of all strategy and application.

I never had a problem converting chi sau to sparring, but its usefulness seems to be a big bone of contention for some.

I just found that once a point of contact was established it gave you a means of flowing straight into attacks, and for grappling it helped with gaining better position.

Similarly to what you're finding, forms based TMA are to me all about the strategy. Once you have that, everything else is just what fits the circumstances.

 

[Cephalopod]

About six months ago I was sparring with a fellow class mate in 4oz gloves and used my elbow to block a strike and his stike must have chipped something round my elbow as I could not lean on it at all for a few weeks and even now every now and then something catches and it hurts when leaned on.

Damn, you would figure that the elbow could take more of a beating than a fist! Sounds like a microfracture maybe.

 

[Eric_H]

Not new to me but weird to hear that. What body method aren't you seeing?

Your punches look like they're mostly arm, I don't see any connection to the hips and torso.

 

[lansao]

Your punches look like they're mostly arm, I don't see any connection to the hips and torso.

So strange. I definitely tend to break out extension from rotation from step for educational purposes so maybe that’s where you’re not seeing it. Also, keep in mind we likely study different versions of Wing Chun so we may just have different takes on what that punch should look like.

Why don’t we discuss punch mechanics and my Wing Chun punch in a separate thread. Would love for you to share a video of your jab there as well. You can show me how your arm is connected to your torso/hips.

 

[Martial D]

I never had a problem converting chi sau to sparring, but its usefulness seems to be a big bone of contention for some.

I just found that once a point of contact was established it gave you a means of flowing straight into attacks, and for grappling it helped with gaining better position.

Similarly to what you're finding, forms based TMA are to me all about the strategy. Once you have that, everything else is just what fits the circumstances.

Ehh, it's very possible we just move differently. Im very long(80 in reach), and like to keep people at the end of my strikes. When I am in the pocket my head is usually low and in your chest, or on your shoulder in a over under or double under. Entangling arms from a square position at that range just isn't something I have been able to make work.