Wing Chun is an Internal System

[Yoshiyahu]

Well Tai Chi is your main style...It sounds like your body automatically defaults to Tai Chi Chuan. Well I think all you need from Wing Chun is to spar them. If your that skilled in Tai Chi you have the same things. You have softness and cirlce defenses. To turn off force and roll it away and neutralize it.

I choose Wing Chun because I have been doing for so long.

That is tight though. I wish I could spar with you on regular basis. That way I can have contact with a pretty skilled guy to harness my skill.

Nope, I have not trained Wing Chun past Sil lim Tao and I never got into the elements in Wing Chun at all. I am a Taiji guy first and a Xingyi guy second or third. Wing Chun time in training experience for me would come after a few other styles I've done. It is just Wing Chun (for the 3rd and likely final time) is more recent than the others.

I can say however, from the last time I tried Wing Chun and we were working applications that all of my attacks are either Sanda or Xingyiquan and it appeared that all had a big problem defending against Xingyiquan piquan – splitting fist – metal and zuanquan – drilling fist – water. I was not trying to use Xingyiquan I just couldn't stop it no matter how hard I tried. I do not believe I used any of the other 5 elements only metal and water.

It got to a point where the rest of the students stop drilling and asked the Sifu what to do and he had me attack and he stopped me but we were in a stalemate and neither of us could move. If one moved the other could attack so we stood there. I will say I was rather impressed at how he got control of every possible avenue of attack so quickly. However it left me in control of him as well, his advantage though was he was quicker, mine was I am bigger and in a real good podition for kao had he moved. It was interesting and I would have loved to explore that more but he had other students who were getting it better than I.

I did get to a point where I was able to not use proper application of Piquan but it was taking WAAAAY too much effort and I was taking up WAAAAAY to much of my sifus time trying to figure out how to stop this from occurring so I quit.

Also all my defenses, no matter how hard I tried to change it were various applications of taijiquan. I was able to truncate those however but it was still not Wing Chun.

So I left, rather sadly actually, because I have always been pretty impressed by Wing Chum

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Under Splitting - Emptyflower Xingyiquan

Then under Beginning Forms

Hey, thanks Xue! I realy have to take my time and read from this site. It looks great.

I am using this guy again because I can't show the fist without it being linked with other fist or it is to fast to see the application.

Paoquan

5 element form with the actual name so you can see the technique done somewhat fast but a very good demonstration and power.

I don't know Wing chuns approach to the Five elements but this may help:

Splitting fist-metal-Pi=As if cutting wood up and over

Drilling fist-Water-Zu=like a geyser shooting up

Pounding fist-Fire-Pao-like a slamming

Crossing fist-Earth-Heng-like a curving type strike

Smashing fist-Wood-Beng-Like a shooting arrow that expands and contracts

Thanks! Interesting video. Hey WC people, doesn't a shooting arrow that expands and contracts sound sort of like the punch tha we do? And it looks to me that when the guy in the second video does Beng it's sort of chain punchi-ish?

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Yes Beng is sort of like a chain punch because when you strike it is expanding then it comes back allowing the other hand to become long like a rebound.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well Tai Chi is your main style...It sounds like your body automatically defaults to Tai Chi Chuan. Well I think all you need from Wing Chun is to spar them. If your that skilled in Tai Chi you have the same things. You have softness and cirlce defenses. To turn off force and roll it away and neutralize it.

I choose Wing Chun because I have been doing for so long.

That is tight though. I wish I could spar with you on regular basis. That way I can have contact with a pretty skilled guy to harness my skill.

To be honest I fully believe he style that fits me best in Xingyiquan and possible yiquan. It is just that I have a whole lot more training in Yang Taijiquan and there are no xingyiquan sifus near me that have the same high level of knowledge about xingyiquan that my Yang sifu has about taijiquan. And there are absolutely NO Yiquan sifus anywhere near me.

Years ago I use to do a lot of cross style sparring. It is a great way to learn. However there are not that many people around anymore that are interested in sparing. They tend to be more interested in form.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hey, thanks Xue! I realy have to take my time and read from this site. It looks great.

It is one of the better sites out there on Xingyiquan.

If you are interested you should go through the entire site it has a whole lot of information on things Xingyiquan

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Why do you feel Xing Yi is more of fit...Please explain?

Which style do you fight better with Xing Yi or Tai Chi...

As for the sparring situtation I understand many are going that route this day...

To be honest I fully believe he style that fits me best in Xingyiquan and possible yiquan. It is just that I have a whole lot more training in Yang Taijiquan and there are no xingyiquan sifus near me that have the same high level of knowledge about xingyiquan that my Yang sifu has about taijiquan. And there are absolutely NO Yiquan sifus anywhere near me.

Years ago I use to do a lot of cross style sparring. It is a great way to learn. However there are not that many people around anymore that are interested in sparing. They tend to be more interested in form.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Why do you feel Xing Yi is more of fit...Please explain?

Which style do you fight better with Xing Yi or Tai Chi...

To quote Bruce Lee from Tao of Jeet Kune Do (And the Buddhist or was it Taoist philosophy he took if from) What is, is

As for the sparring situtation I understand many are going that route this day...

That was about 15 years ago.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay...I didnt understand...

Are you more comfortable using Tai Chi or Xing Yi?

To quote Bruce Lee from Tao of Jeet Kune Do (And the Buddhist or was it Taoist philosophy he took if from) What is, is



That was about 15 years ago.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I&feature=related

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I have never flown like those guys.

I will admit if a teacher knows how to redirect your energy you will "fly back" but not as extreme as these guys. These guys look like over acting and only enforce the delusion.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Yes, I think suggestion is a huge part in this videos. Strongly evident in the last video! Not saying that this things don't exist to a certein degree but this is just rediculus! And is one of the reasons I asosiated Chi as mystical. So many videos like this on the net! But on the other hand I realy don't know what to think of a guy like that John Chang character that I posted a video of earlier in this thread. There are more videos of him if you search on youtube! Well, who knows...

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

To me, Wing Chun is balanced, half internal, half External.

In general terms, to me, Internal methods are methods that train subtle movements that develop Fa Jin. Hard to see the benefits of particular training methods without a trained eye, and hard to see the reason for such powerful force and control over attackers.

External methods develop athleticism and conditioning. Easy to notice the benefits and power generation for techniques is dependent on this athleticism.

Hope this helps.

Juan M. Mercado

 

[Xue Sheng]

Okay...I didnt understand...

Are you more comfortable using Tai Chi or Xing Yi?

As "ALREADY STATED" My attacks appear to have been Xingyiquan or Sanda and all my defense appears to be Taijiquan.

So it would depend on what I was doing as to which I am more comfortable with. It just happens naturally and I was not aware of this until I returned to Wing Chun the last time and was working on apps.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Greetings.

To me, Wing Chun is balanced, half internal, half External.

In general terms, to me, Internal methods are methods that train subtle movements that develop Fa Jin. Hard to see the benefits of particular training methods without a trained eye, and hard to see the reason for such powerful force and control over attackers.

External methods develop athleticism and conditioning. Easy to notice the benefits and power generation for techniques is dependent on this athleticism.

Hope this helps.

Juan M. Mercado

I think I agree So if I understood you right, your definition of internal is structure, the internal contraction and such? If so I see things the same!

And to return to that video I posted in which the guy is forced to bounce like a lunatic by the means of Chi. I commented that I do belive this si possible to a certein degree becouse of the definition of internal that I seem to share with the Profesor. To elaborate: I have experienced similar effects ("subtle movements that develop Fa Jin") during Chi Sao or Tai Chi push hands with my WC instructor and am able to do them myself to a certein degree. The point is if the guy "has" the structure and uses it in a sudden burst of power to push you and you resist you will bounce similarly(but a lot less) than the guys in the video. And thats Fa Jing if I understand correctly, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

And for that, this would also be true: "Hard to see the benefits of particular training methods without a trained eye, and hard to see the reason for such powerful force and control over attackers". But this is basicly what people do when they do one inch punch or resist a lot of force with structure and so on.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay I get it now...so your use to attacking with Xing Yi but defense is basically Tai Chi...Nice little Mix...excellent your a MMA fighter already.


I would love to see you spar...do you have a video?

As "ALREADY STATED" My attacks appear to have been Xingyiquan or Sanda and all my defense appears to be Taijiquan.

So it would depend on what I was doing as to which I am more comfortable with. It just happens naturally and I was not aware of this until I returned to Wing Chun the last time and was working on apps.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Okay I get it now...so your use to attacking with Xing Yi but defense is basically Tai Chi...Nice little Mix...excellent your a MMA fighter already.


I would love to see you spar...do you have a video?

Far from an MMA fighter, just an old beat up CMA guy. And no there are no videos. Nothing against MMA fighters, I have a lot of respect for thier dedication and training, but I am certainly not MMA.

Throughout Chinese MA history a multitude of CMA people have trained more than one style and they could still very easily be categorized in one style. A lot of Xingyi people trained Bagua and a lot of IMA people throughout Chinese history trained Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan.

Yang Luchan, the founder of Yang style trained Changquan first and Chen style second and then went off and claimed to have studied with Taoists and low and behold Yang Style Taijiquan was born.

I tend to classify myself as Taijiquan and since taijiquan tends not to attack as much as defend and in Xingyi attack is defense then if I am asked to attack, as my Wing Chun sifu did, it is only natural that is will come out as Xingyiquan. Read the books I suggested and it will be easier to understand.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I understand what you mean Brother...Very interesting. So would you say there are some major similiarites between Wing Chun and Xing Yi Quan?

Far from an MMA fighter, just an old beat up CMA guy. And no there are no videos. Nothing against MMA fighters, I have a lot of respect for thier dedication and training, but I am certainly not MMA.

Throughout Chinese MA history a multitude of CMA people have trained more than one style and they could still very easily be categorized in one style. A lot of Xingyi people trained Bagua and a lot of IMA people throughout Chinese history trained Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan.

Yang Luchan, the founder of Yang style trained Changquan first and Chen style second and then went off and claimed to have studied with Taoists and low and behold Yang Style Taijiquan was born.

I tend to classify myself as Taijiquan and since taijiquan tends not to attack as much as defend and in Xingyi attack is defense then if I am asked to attack, as my Wing Chun sifu did, it is only natural that is will come out as Xingyiquan. Read the books I suggested and it will be easier to understand.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I understand what you mean Brother...Very interesting. So would you say there are some major similiarites between Wing Chun and Xing Yi Quan?

Yes and no.

No more than similarities between Wing Chun and any other CMA style, possibly less actually. They both like the centerline but they attack it differently the both come from China but Xingyiquan is decidedly Northern and Wing Chun is most likely Southern.

Xingyiquan attack and defense is the same thing and in Wing Chun that is not necessarily the case. Both are Martial arts but Xingyiquan was at one time taught to the Chinese military. Both are fairly linear but again they do not approach it the same and if you are talking upper levels of Shanxi style Xingyiquan you get into circle walking. Some styles of Xingyiquan train a rather amazing number of weapons other do not but as far as I know none train the butterfly knives of Wing Chun.

The Xingyiquan approach to the center and attack is much the same as a cavalry charge. Not so much stand there and more when you can or stand and fight but attack. It tends to be, in application, fairly relentless in attack.

But if I am to look at it form my training in Xingyiquan and compare it to the Wing Chun I trained I would have to say they are very different. So different that my Wing Chun sifu had no idea what it was but he did successfully stop it (but I have gone through this already someplace). Also the entire basic structure of Xingyiquan is the stance called Santi shi and Wing Chun does not train it nor does it put as much importance on training stances as Xingyiquan does. I have said this at leas twice to you and I will go for a third. If you want to get some idea of Xingyiquan go try standing in Santi for 5 minutes per side for a total of 10 minutes and then you need to understand that unless you can do that for 20 minutes per side for a total of 40 minutes you are not even a beginner by old China standards.

If you are looking for a link to IMA or another CMA for Wing Chun I suggest you don’t look to Xingyiquan. It is rather different for a CMA as compared even compared to other CMA styles and it is somewhat unique in its approach to fighting. I would venture a guess here that the only other style that would be similar to Xingyiquan would be Xinyiquan and I have had a couple Xinyiquan people tell me they are not the same. However it is likely that Xinyiquan is where Xingyiquan came from.


Read this page if you want to learn more about Xingyiquan

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Sounds like a cool art. Checked the net if theres any Xingyiquan here but nothing shows up... Would love to at least check it out though. Hey, do you mind explaining what Xinyiquan is?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sounds like a cool art. Checked the net if theres any Xingyiquan here but nothing shows up... Would love to at least check it out though. Hey, do you mind explaining what Xinyiquan is?

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/

http://www.answers.com/topic/xingyiquan

Books
- The Xingyi Boxing Manual: Hebei Style's Five Principles and Seven Words by Jing Yunting
- Xing Yi Nei Gong: Xing Yi Health Maintenance and Internal Strength Development by Dan Miller and Tim Cartmell
- Xing Yi Quan Xue: The Study of Form-Mind Boxing by Sun Lu Tang
- Di Guoyong on Xingyiquan Vol.1: Five Element Foundation

Interview with Di Guoyong

Other