Wing Chun is an Internal System

[Eru Ilúvatar]

There is nothing magical or mysterious about Chi. Chi is a chinese word for Enery. Your cells need energy to work. We all have electrical pulses through our bodies. Your cells get energy from the Sun, Oxygen and Food. Thats why certain foods provide energy for your cells. Your Chi also comes from Oxygen and Food. Some people disagree over weather or not we gain energy from the sun. But certain internal experts teach the sun, the earth, the trees, and other people we also gain Chi from. But anyway lets not get into that debate....

Chi seems mysterious because in the west their are not Great Caucasian minds speak to truth of Chi. But you also create or cultivate more Chi through Skill work. As you said before. Doing a Horse stance, Running laps, Doing push ups and sit ups, hitting the wall bag or heavy bag. Etc Etc. You acquire more skills and cultivate more Chi. Chi Kung means Enery Work or Energy skill. So people who do Chi Kung or Hei Gong are acquiring Chi Skills.

But so far your comparisons are right on the money concerning Wing Chun and Chi. I have little to disagree on. Others may debate on your practice. But Chi is just a word don't get wrapped up in it. Its like saying the word punch or kick. You need a label for it everyone can understand and use. With out label no one will truly understand what you mean. The problem with the theory of Chi is Kung Fu movies. We see people flying through air, Doing Hiyukiens and shooting fire balls out of their hand, Disappearing, leviatation or traveling through time and space. We we attribute this craziness to Chi. No No...its not that crazy or mystical its actually really scientifical as you said.

If you want to develop Chi three good ways to do it

1.Strecth your body from head to toe and breath while your doing it!
2.Do all the empty hand forms really slowly.
3.Sit in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma for twenty to thirty minutes daily.


This will aid you in your pursuit to cultivate Chi.

In my humble opinion!

Damn, I may not agree with you on the orgins of wrestling and on thoughts about gay people but it would be almost immposible to deny that your very knowlegable and you have helped me understand many aspects of WC better and your not on this forum for very long! You gave me some very (to me)valuable information in your posts. I thank you for that!

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Wow...That post struck me very direct. I think you are using Wing Chun in your post. Thank you very much. Actually I know nothing I just be. I try to study and practice as best I can so I can progress I share what I think I know at the time. Who knows maybe one day I might find from my practice Chi really is mystical and I can fly around and do spectacular feet like teleport and turn invisible and read peoples minds make fire and electricity come out of hands like something out of return of the jedi. But if I did discover Chi was mystical and could make fire come out of hands and fly around. I probably would still say same thing...Its nothing mystical. In Fact I would probably make it my point to let people know its nothing mystical about even if it really was.


But in the mean time the main thing is practice. There are no magic moves or magic styles that can beat everyone else. There is no secret formula that will gurantee you one percent success in every fight even against a novice. The main thing is always always practice...

But I am glad to have help someone. If I am able to help one person I know my Sifu would be happen. Since he places so much stock into helping others.

But as for opinions I am sure there are alot of people on here alot more knowledgeable than me. I love talking with these people the most. An conflicting opinions sometimes help us learn more about our own System. Its great win win everytime. I myself learn from everyone even Children!!!

Damn, I may not agree with you on the orgins of wrestling and on thoughts about gay people but it would be almost immposible to deny that your very knowlegable and you have helped me understand many aspects of WC better and your not on this forum for very long! You gave me some very (to me)valuable information in your posts. I thank you for that!

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

But as for opinions I am sure there are alot of people on here alot more knowledgeable than me. I love talking with these people the most. An conflicting opinions sometimes help us learn more about our own System. Its great win win everytime. I myself learn from everyone even Children!!!

Yea exactly! It's a shame tho, that some people are afraid to share information or something. Guess they think they'll lose an edge on everybody by putting their secret techniques out there? Or some I feel belive that if they've worked hard for that information and were treated badly in the process that others must go from the same stuff, to get it. I've met a few people like that in the martial arts world, but I'm glad to say that the majority here is not like that at all! I think Geezer stated in one thread something that I liked a lot. Something in the sense; if we would all share we would all benefit greatly. Plus it's too short of a lifetime to discover everything by yourself. Speaking about economy of motion...

 

[Yoshiyahu]

So true I have to agree with you. So by all means please share your opinions on Internal Side of Wing Chun. Maybe something you read,experience or heard from your Sifu. Please share?

Yea exactly! It's a shame tho, that some people are afraid to share information or something. Guess they think they'll lose an edge on everybody by putting their secret techniques out there? Or some I feel belive that if they've worked hard for that information and were treated badly in the process that others must go from the same stuff, to get it. I've met a few people like that in the martial arts world, but I'm glad to say that the majority here is not like that at all! I think Geezer stated in one thread something that I liked a lot. Something in the sense; if we would all share we would all benefit greatly. Plus it's too short of a lifetime to discover everything by yourself. Speaking about economy of motion...

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Hm well.. Ok, but I can tell you very little what I know/was thought about it becouse there wasn't a huge importance put on it, and well I'm that sort of guy that I didn't realy care too much about it.

What I was thought was that while doing forms, if you want the Chi to flow you have to curl the pelvis, sink your breathing down to Dan tien, make your back straight and connect the toungue to the pelate of your mouthe, oh and being realxed and breathe naturaly of course. If you don't do that your Chi can't flow properly.

But know look, this are all fine but well, but I see it as so: you curl the pelvis becouse of the structure, you sink the breathing to lower your center of gravity plus it's a relaxed way of breathing, straight back is structure too and you connect the tounge to the pellet well to get used to it You don't want your tounge bitten of by yourself in the middle of a fight do you?

There are other things and breathing exercise that we did but would be allmost immposible to describe them plus things in the forms that we did becouse of Chi aspects but they all head very meaningful applications in street combat.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Very Very good. I feel the same way. In Fact some of the practices like standing in YGKYM for an hour each day to cultivate Chi I discovered that it makes you stronger. Meaning you are more grounded or rooted if you continue to practice that way. I personally Have not done an Hour in some years...I don't have the time too right now. I try to cover as much as I can. But its still great way to increase Chi, Energy or Strength. What ever one wants to call it.


I also notice from practicing the old traditional stances like Horse stance, Crossing Horse, Arrow Stance etc. You begin to build muslce in your legs. Kinda like from doing endless squats. But the difference is your working your muscles by static exercises. Instead of moving ones.

Its very interesting how you correlate the fighting application with the Chi cultivation aspects. Everything in Wing Chun has more than one application. This is so true. But my Sifu was one who always stressed the Chi. He always stressed healing and what not. But he was a fighter. He loved the fight. But he was trying to change from that because he is getting older.

But yes its great to see others embracing the Chi side of Wing Chun.

I am glad that you are open minded. Have you ever asked you Sifu about the Chi?

Also many Sifu's do not teach about the Chi because Westerners don't care about it. I usually tell people about certain practices I first tell them about the Chi but really make a point that doing various exercises will make them stronger or quicker or increase their skill in other areas. Which it does.

Hm well.. Ok, but I can tell you very little what I know/was thought about it becouse there wasn't a huge importance put on it, and well I'm that sort of guy that I didn't realy care too much about it.

What I was thought was that while doing forms, if you want the Chi to flow you have to curl the pelvis, sink your breathing down to Dan tien, make your back straight and connect the toungue to the pelate of your mouthe, oh and being realxed and breathe naturaly of course. If you don't do that your Chi can't flow properly.

But know look, this are all fine but well, but I see it as so: you curl the pelvis becouse of the structure, you sink the breathing to lower your center of gravity plus it's a relaxed way of breathing, straight back is structure too and you connect the tounge to the pellet well to get used to it You don't want your tounge bitten of by yourself in the middle of a fight do you?

There are other things and breathing exercise that we did but would be allmost immposible to describe them plus things in the forms that we did becouse of Chi aspects but they all head very meaningful applications in street combat.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I completely agree with you on the stances. I did ask my Sifu about Chi a couple of times. He allways responded in the sense that it does exist and that he can also "feel" it to a certein extent tho he hasn't found anything Jedi like it's cultivation yet. He also said that it reenergises you and that everybody has it. But he wasn't bothered to much about it; he didn't study it very hard and couldn't name you all the meridians and where they are or nothing like that. But hes sifu, my sigung had more knowledge about it and he allways said that WC is soppose to be a very well balanced art in virtualy all aspects; like health, selfdefence, mind-wise and also that it stays true to the 5elements theory.

Oh and this kind of on the same topic so I would like to ask you guys what you can tell me about the 5elements and WC? I basicly know nothing about it. Neither can I ask my instructore as he left the country a while ago(story of my life with WC instructores)

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

The five elements theory may be credited to Tsou Yen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsou_Yen

It consist of both a generating cycle and destructive cycle.

In the Yellow Emperor's classic Neijing suwen we find in the truth of the Golden chamber the five elements and there realtion to things.

This subject is very important to Chinese thought and within the Health,Martial and Religious ideals.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hebei Xingyiquan Wuxing

Wood creates fire, fire creates earth, and earth creates metal, metal creates water, water creates wood

Wood conquers Earth, Earth conquers water, water conquers fire, fire conquers metal, and metal conquers wood

This applies to attack and defense within Xingyiquan Wuxing

My flavor of Yang Taijiquan Wuxing

South – Fire
East – Wood
West – Metal
North – Water
Center - Earth

But it is not applied the same as it is in Hebei Xingyiquan and the chart representing it is quite different.

However I am told if you are training with the Yang family the chart is the same as Xingyiquan but again the application of it is different

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Well Interesting. Can you give us ideas on how you apply elements. Maybe how would you apply Fire in Xing Yi when fighting? What type of opponent would use the Fire Element and why?

Hebei Xingyiquan Wuxing

Wood creates fire, fire creates earth, and earth creates metal, metal creates water, water creates wood

Wood conquers Earth, Earth conquers water, water conquers fire, fire conquers metal, and metal conquers wood

This applies to attack and defense within Xingyiquan Wuxing

My flavor of Yang Taijiquan Wuxing

South – Fire
East – Wood
West – Metal
North – Water
Center - Earth

But it is not applied the same as it is in Hebei Xingyiquan and the chart representing it is quite different.

However I am told if you are training with the Yang family the chart is the same as Xingyiquan but again the application of it is different

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well Interesting. Can you give us ideas on how you apply elements. Maybe how would you apply Fire in Xing Yi when fighting? What type of opponent would use the Fire Element and why?

I already have

Wood creates fire, fire creates earth, and earth creates metal, metal creates water, water creates wood

Wood conquers Earth, Earth conquers water, water conquers fire, fire conquers metal, and metal conquers wood

Wuxing (5 elements) is made up of 5 forms that are also categorized by element and the idea is to categorize all attacks and defenses into these elements and respond with the proper form.

Attack with wood respond with metal,
Wood then can changes to fire to counter metal,
metal change to water to counter fire,
Fire changes to earth to counter water
Water changes to wood to counter earth
Earth changes to metal to counter wood
And you are back at the beginning

piquan – splitting fist – metal
zuanquan – drilling fist – water
bengquan –smashing fist – wood
paoquan – pounding fist – fire
hengquan – crossing fist - earth

The never ending circle of attack and counter-attack

Remember in Xingyiquan attack is defense and defense is attack

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

To help illustrate the point in Hsing yi on how the elements react.

Lets say opponent uses Metal-splitting-Piquan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVq4JVoZW-0&feature=related

**Note I picked him because he moves slow not because he is good**

You use Fire-pounding-Paoquan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xJJYWxVa6Q&feature=related

Thats the theory however you can use other elements against each other they are not written in stone. I might use Wood-smashing-Benquan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SWRnnc9thw&feature=related
against Fire-pounding-Paoquan if I thought I was fast enough or whatever.

Again the guy in the video is a begginer but he does it slow to so you can see the technique the really good masters do it so fast its hard to see lol.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Todah Rabah for the videos. I am glad you have shared your knowledge with me. Keep up the good work. Which of the elements is one of your favorites?

You Said:

The never ending circle of attack and counter-attack

Remember in Xingyiquan attack is defense and defense is attack

This reminds me of Wing Chun...Wow so many similarites.

 

[Xue Sheng]

. Which of the elements is one of your favorites?

No favorites all are equally important

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Xue Sheng, knowing that you studied WC, I would be very grateful if you could tell me as much as time allows you about the 5 elements and WC. Could you tell me for example, in what techniqes does a particular element manifest? Or what elements do you see in something like Yee gee kim yeung ma? Also, knowing WC principals an theories what elements would you say are dominant in WC?
I thank you in advance for your time.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Thats an excellent question...I can not wait to here their answers...Also Jade feel free to chime in on this question I look forward to hearing your response. I was woundering what that very thing. I personally have my opinion of what element is dominant in Wing Chun but I have a limited knowledge of the Five Elements right now.

Buts it Ironic Eru Iluvatar I was thinking about asking this same question on my next Break at work...wow...great mind reading!

Xue Sheng, knowing that you studied WC, I would be very grateful if you could tell me as much as time allows you about the 5 elements and WC. Could you tell me for example, in what techniqes does a particular element manifest? Or what elements do you see in something like Yee gee kim yeung ma? Also, knowing WC principals an theories what elements would you say are dominant in WC?
I thank you in advance for your time.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng, knowing that you studied WC, I would be very grateful if you could tell me as much as time allows you about the 5 elements and WC. Could you tell me for example, in what techniqes does a particular element manifest? Or what elements do you see in something like Yee gee kim yeung ma? Also, knowing WC principals an theories what elements would you say are dominant in WC?
I thank you in advance for your time.

Nope, I have not trained Wing Chun past Sil lim Tao and I never got into the elements in Wing Chun at all. I am a Taiji guy first and a Xingyi guy second or third. Wing Chun time in training experience for me would come after a few other styles I've done. It is just Wing Chun (for the 3rd and likely final time) is more recent than the others.

I can say however, from the last time I tried Wing Chun and we were working applications that all of my attacks are either Sanda or Xingyiquan and it appeared that all had a big problem defending against Xingyiquan piquan – splitting fist – metal and zuanquan – drilling fist – water. I was not trying to use Xingyiquan I just couldn't stop it no matter how hard I tried. I do not believe I used any of the other 5 elements only metal and water.

It got to a point where the rest of the students stop drilling and asked the Sifu what to do and he had me attack and he stopped me but we were in a stalemate and neither of us could move. If one moved the other could attack so we stood there. I will say I was rather impressed at how he got control of every possible avenue of attack so quickly. However it left me in control of him as well, his advantage though was he was quicker, mine was I am bigger and in a real good podition for kao had he moved. It was interesting and I would have loved to explore that more but he had other students who were getting it better than I.

I did get to a point where I was able to not use proper application of Piquan but it was taking WAAAAY too much effort and I was taking up WAAAAAY to much of my sifus time trying to figure out how to stop this from occurring so I quit.

Also all my defenses, no matter how hard I tried to change it were various applications of taijiquan. I was able to truncate those however but it was still not Wing Chun.

So I left, rather sadly actually, because I have always been pretty impressed by Wing Chum

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Oh ok. Thanks for the input anyway! I would like to ask you about this: piquan – splitting fist – metal
zuanquan – drilling fist – water
bengquan –smashing fist – wood
paoquan – pounding fist – fire
hengquan – crossing fist - earth

What are they? Could you give me examples please, becouse execpt for a drilling fist I have no idea how the other would look like. Had a problem understanding part of your post becouse of it too. What element would a vertical straight punch be? Does anybody know? I know my instructore talked once about Bong Sao having elements of this and that elemnt in it and so on. But I unfortunately forgot all about it

 

[Xue Sheng]

Oh ok. Thanks for the input anyway! I would like to ask you about this: piquan – splitting fist – metal
zuanquan – drilling fist – water
bengquan –smashing fist – wood
paoquan – pounding fist – fire
hengquan – crossing fist - earth

What are they? Could you give me examples please, becouse execpt for a drilling fist I have no idea how the other would look like. Had a problem understanding part of your post becouse of it too. What element would a vertical straight punch be? Does anybody know? I know my instructore talked once about Bong Sao having elements of this and that elemnt in it and so on. But I unfortunately forgot all about it

Under Splitting - Emptyflower Xingyiquan

Then under Beginning Forms

Beginning Forms
• Wuji "State of Emptiness"
• Taiji "Supreme Poles"
• San Ti Shi "Trinity Posture"
• Wu Xing "Five Elements"
• Pi Quan "Splitting Fist"
• Zuan Quan "Drilling Fist"
• Beng Quan "Crushing Fist"
• Pao Quan "Pounding Fist"
• Heng Quan "Crossing Fist"

Also note the 5 elements and their applications are not necessarily the same form style to style. And although Xingyiquan looks rather simple believe me it is not.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I am using this guy again because I can't show the fist without it being linked with other fist or it is to fast to see the application.

Paoquan

5 element form with the actual name so you can see the technique done somewhat fast but a very good demonstration and power.

I don't know Wing chuns approach to the Five elements but this may help:

Splitting fist-metal-Pi=As if cutting wood up and over

Drilling fist-Water-Zu=like a geyser shooting up

Pounding fist-Fire-Pao-like a slamming

Crossing fist-Earth-Heng-like a curving type strike

Smashing fist-Wood-Beng-Like a shooting arrow that expands and contracts .