Wing Chun is an Internal System

[Yoshiyahu]

Did you know Sheng that Goat Gripping or Goat Clamping stance from Wing Chun is a qigong stance?

For my Wing Chun Brothers and Sisters...Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma or Basic Stance(Lady Ma) is a qigong stance which cultivates Chi.

Watch the class Doing stances including YGKYM

They call it Goat-Griping stance in the video...

Xue Sheng do you have any videos of people using the Wing Chun Stance doing Qi Gong?

Who is Mr. Sam and /or who taught him Yang style Taijiquan? Basically what I am trying to find out here is who in this chain was taught by a member of the Yang family and which Yang family member was it.

And being ranked in a CMA, particularly a Northern system like Taiji means nothing to me. There are traditionally no ranks in Chinese Martial Arts. These appeared when it came to the west because westerners are impressed by ranks. My sifu has been doing Yang Taiji for over 50 years and has no rank other than his sifu “Tung Ying Chieh” allowed him to teach. My Sanda sifu has been doing Sanda for around 30 years and has no rank. The only Rank Chen Zhenglei has comes from the Duan system and it was given to him by the Chinese government but his family never gace him any rank. Nothing wrong with it, but to me it is fairly meaningless when we are talking CMA especially Taijiquan.

Now back to the statement "Wing Chun is an Internal System"

Listen if you want to come on MT and post all about how "Your" particular flavor of Wing Chun is taught internally then great, I have nothing to say about it except possibly tell us more. But if you show up and start saying "all" Wing Chun is internal because that is the way you train then that is just plain wrong and I am going to respond.

Saying all Wing Chun is internal because you train it that way is the same as saying you drive a front wheel drive car therefore all cars are front wheel drive... it just does not work that way

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I think the goat clamping stance does not look very good for the knees.

Though you may feel balanced the structure I feel is not aligned.

If you can stand as in Zhan Zhuang and sink you will feel a burn in the Quadricep and the alignement goes straight not in or out.

Also if you have to tense you are not relaxing.

It's not a bad thing really it is more of an External type of cultivation similar to weight lifting.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am honestly thinking of asking Bob for a “been there done that” section of MT because this is getting old.

Every Single Traditional Chinese Martial Art has stance training and Just about every single Traditional Chinese Martial Art has some sort of Qi training but the only ones called Neijia are Xingyi, Bagua, Taiji, Liuhebafa and by heritage Yiquan. However I am not sure Wang Xiangzhai would have wanted it labeled as such.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Well, I know very little about internal systems.. The only one that was called internal and that I have pesonal experience in is WC. But when you wikipedia neijia or internal styles it says there are 3 primary criteria that distinguis an internal art. Those being:

1. An emphasis on the use of the mind to coordinate the leverage of the relaxed body as opposed to the use of brute strength. (This is very true for WC and is one of its most important principals)
2. The internal development, circulation, and expression of qì. (As other have mentioned the YGKYM and especialy the Sam bai fut section of the first form are sopose to cover this)
3. The application of Taoist dǎoyǐn, qìgōng, and nèigōng (內&#21151 principles of external movement. (I never heard of the first one but WC is sopose to have both qigung and nei gung)

I personaly don't know what to say about it becouse I don't realy belive in Chi nor have I found a phenomena in my WC training that I couldn't explain with structure, alignment, anatomy, relaxation(you get the point)... Even the dark red palm thats hotter than usual that Geezer noticed on GM Leung Ting I think of as increased blood circulation (but who knows maybe thats what the Chinese ment by Chi) and have experineced it myself, esspecialy when doing the form slow and relaxed. But besides that it looks WC qualifies among internal styles if those are the only criteria.. Allthough wikipedia doesn't mention WC as an internal style and only metniones the ones Xue Sheng did.

Saying all this, and expresing how I look at Chi I would like to ask if anybody had any object moving, water boiling experience(seen for themselfs) with Chi? I know a forum member of MT called Ali Rahim posted a video on youtube ones showing of his ability to turn of a flame on a candle with Chi. I would love to hear from someone who has knowledge on the field some explanations or experience.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Ok lets just make this easier then. Internal as in Neijia as in having a strong Taoist root.

Bagua=I ching

Hsing yi= Wu xing

Tai chi chuan-Yin,Yang,Tao,Wu chi

The third criteria is a big one. TAOIST stretching(Daoyin)TAOIST Qigong,
TAOIST neigong.

Wing chun according to some comes from Shaolin. So the training involved has some similarites to the Neijia styles BUT the Neijia style have there own TAOIST characteristics.

Maybe Wing chun has some of the characeristics that Neijia has I can also take any art and say that as well.

Saying all this, and expresing how I look at Chi I would like to ask if anybody had any object moving, water boiling experience(seen for themselfs) with Chi?

Is that how you view Qi as an ability to boil water and move objects? That is the thing about skeptics on Qi.

They think Qi is a mystical force that moves objects but the defination of Qi is none of that so a skeptic has a notion of what Qi is and reminds skeptic due to their own ignorance of the subject.

When ever you do a step in Wing chun forward backwards or whatever is the lead foot empty?
I notice in Bagua,Hsing yi and Tai chi chuan stepping one foot is usually empty or slowly going into the other foot. Also there is not alot of 50/50 footwork or stepping.

Bagua-walking circle one foot is usually with weight one is not.
Hsing yi-70/30
Tai chi chuan-empty step.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I tried to make clear that I have very little experinece on the subject and also that these are only ma belifes.. So please don't take any offense becouse of how I see things. But maybe if I knew more I would change them, who knows?

Is that how you view Qi as an ability to boil water and move objects? That is the thing about skeptics on Qi.

They think Qi is a mystical force that moves objects but the defination of Qi is none of that so a skeptic has a notion of what Qi is and reminds skeptic due to their own ignorance of the subject.

It was intened to be a bit humuros (in which I obviously failed ) due to the magic, mystic asociations people usualy get when there is talk about chi. And also becouse I have seen videos of people doing just that( boiling water, move objects and also extinguishing fire as I stated on youtube videos) by the means of chi. For example

As I said I tryed to make clear that I am ignorant on the subject(which you allread correctly judged me as).. Just tryed to contribute to the post and ask a question. But besides calling me ignorant why don't you please share some of your knowledge so I wont be It seems to me that I have offended you with my disbelief or ignorance but I assure you I wrote that with good intentions.. As I said I would love to know more on the subject if your willing to share!

 

[Xue Sheng]

I tried to make clear that I have very little experinece on the subject and also that these are only ma belifes.. So please don't take any offense becouse of how I see things. But maybe if I knew more I would change them, who knows?



It was intened to be a bit humuros (in which I obviously failed ) due to the magic, mystic asociations people usualy get when there is talk about chi. And also becouse I have seen videos of people doing just that( boiling water, move objects and also extinguishing fire as I stated on youtube videos) by the means of chi. For example

As I said I tryed to make clear that I am ignorant on the subject(which you allread correctly judged me as).. Just tryed to contribute to the post and ask a question. But besides calling me ignorant why don't you please share some of your knowledge so I wont be It seems to me that I have offended you with my disbelief or ignorance but I assure you I wrote that with good intentions.. As I said I would love to know more on the subject if your willing to share!

Be more careful next time or you will force me to shoot mystic qi energy balls at you... if you hear me yelling kamehameha...duck and cover

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

My apologies Eru.

People that practice Qigong we get alot of flack.

I really try on this site to clear up the whole mystical Qi thing.Though it does exist but I think that is more religious.

Qi really just means energy.

Alot of times when we are speaking about Qi we are talking about Ren Qi(human Qi). IMO Mitochondra may best describe what Qi is since blood and Qi are independent within the body.

Ying Qi which is best decribed as nurishing energy would be the nurients recieved from food and used by the body.

Is it possible to do what the video does?
I have never seen it done in real life. I have been practicing Qigong for over 10 yrs and I have yet to see anything close to that.

Maybe it is possible but I rather think of another explaination of it be it gun powder or what not.

I have heard tales of Qigong masters being able to do strange things some of them may be true. Some may be blown out of portion and some are simple tricks. Those who claim such feats are practicing either a religious type of Qigong or are using tricks.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

No apologise necesery. Thank you Jadecloud! That was very informative. Interesting you mention mitochondrians. Arent they soppose to produce the cells energy in the krebs cycle (not sure how you write it in English?) from oxygen? That would would go well hand in hand with things I hear Chi is soppose to do. Allthough how would you explain body movements such as qigung having an effect on that level? And would a statement such as Chi si blood be completly wrong? I have heard many times people who know things about Chi sugest that but never realy say it.. Thanks again and sorry to you if it looked like I want to be a smartass.

Be more careful next time or you will force me to shoot mystic qi energy balls at you... if you hear me yelling kamehameha...duck and cover

Man would that kind of thing help with my martial training ! Talking about efficency in selfdefence and doing the most deamege to your opponent in the least amount of time

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Qi is Qi. Blood would be called Xue. However you can not seperate the Qi from the blood well at least not in Qigong theory that I know of.

The Chinese of old knew that you can obtain Qi from Heaven(Tian Qi).
In modern times we can say we obtain Air from the Atmosphere to the body.

The movements in basic understanding would be similar to weight training or modern type calisthenics. For example moving the arms creates more circulation by actual arm movement or when we generate a thought we are leading Qi or energy to the arm to increase circulation.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

It seems so unbelivable to me how this Chinese people all those thousands of years ago knew so much of how things work not having technology as today. They really knew something. I heard somewhere that acupuncture is the only non-traditional-western-medicine-thing (for a lack of a better word in English ) from which the Western medicine acknowledges its benefits.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Wing Chun Stepping is actually about 70% on the back leg and 30% on front leg. So in Wing Chun you have substantial and unsubstantial weight distribution. When you step forward in Wing Chun The front foot lifts up and weight drags on back foot. So when the front foot comes down your weight shoots forward accomapanied with a punch gives you that extra power. But Wing Chun is rarely fifty/fifty in weight. When your in side bracing stance there is substantial and insubstantial weight. But with Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma it is a little difference. However in my lineage you lift off the heels slightly and place more weight on balls of the foot. Different lineages change this. Some place more on the back than the toe...Depends on the lineage. But even with the foot you have difference of weight distribution.

I hope that answers your question. There are various steps where the weight distribution changes. Like with C-Step. But I wont go any further I will let others share about their lineage!

When ever you do a step in Wing chun forward backwards or whatever is the lead foot empty?quote]

 

[qwksilver61]

Odd....we still use OLD knowlege...I once visited the royal tombs of China...blown away...the Chinese are responsible for suspension bridges,umbrellas,gunpowder,the crossbow and bolt,the list goes on.....
There have been and currently are classes conducted on remote viewing,something that the west for a long time has dismissed as poo-poo.Studies of monks who seemingly defy extremes of cold ( the part of the brain (can anyone tell me? it controls body temp.) proof of this...a man who was struck by lightning who is unable to control his body temperature (still under study) odd too that the most powerful modern computers cannot accurately predict the long term effects of global warming.....blah...blah....blah....

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Interesting discussion...But what are you talking about?

Odd....we still use OLD knowlege...I once visited the royal tombs of China...blown away...the Chinese are responsible for suspension bridges,umbrellas,gunpowder,the crossbow and bolt,the list goes on.....
There have been and currently are classes conducted on remote viewing,something that the west for a long time has dismissed as poo-poo.Studies of monks who seemingly defy extremes of cold ( the part of the brain (can anyone tell me? it controls body temp.) proof of this...a man who was struck by lightning who is unable to control his body temperature (still under study) odd too that the most powerful modern computers cannot accurately predict the long term effects of global warming.....blah...blah....blah....

 

[qwksilver61]

OK. let me put it to you this way.....most people are skeptics.......
scientists will study something to death......because you cannot feel or see a thing does not mean that it does not exist.....why then after years of study,are some just starting to accept or grasp a thing unseen ? Remote viewing,premonitions....Chi......?
I think some....want to study a thing to death before realizing that it exists.I love to share my experiences with other people,do I alone possess it? am I the end all ,know all? This internal thing that we have discussed,Is a personal thing.This is not meant to confuse,but yeah this is my experience,has anyone here experienced Chi? Really........?????????? If so, how did you recognize it? What did it feel like to you? Were you fully aware of what was taking place? just a question,not a parable.Oh and thanks to everyone for at least attempting to understand my absurdity & doublespeak..........

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Please elaborate.

OK. let me put it to you this way.....most people are skeptics.......
scientists will study something to death......because you cannot feel or see a thing does not mean that it does not exist.....why then after years of study,are some just starting to accept or grasp a thing unseen ? Remote viewing,premonitions....Chi......?
I think some....want to study a thing to death before realizing that it exists.I love to share my experiences with other people,do I alone possess it? am I the end all ,know all? This internal thing that we have discussed,Is a personal thing.This is not meant to confuse,but yeah this is my experience,has anyone here experienced Chi? Really........?????????? If so, how did you recognize it? What did it feel like to you? Were you fully aware of what was taking place? just a question,not a parable.Oh and thank to everyone for at least attempting to understand my absurdity & doublespeak..........

 

[qwksilver61]

Ok. read ERU's post simply put......modern does not mean better or necessarily more knowledgeable,the ancients understood without beating a thing to death or overkill.
Again.......Does anyone here believe that they have ever experienced Chi? How did you recognize it? How Did you feel? Do Tell........

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Do you think some of ancient internal styles have died out from not being practice or forgotten. If so do you recall any of the names of the styles names?


How do you feel about New Arts combinations such as MMA? and Yoga and Tai Chi.

Ok. read ERU's post simply put......modern does not mean better or necessarily more knowledgeable,the ancients understood without beating a thing to death or overkill.
Again.......Does anyone here believe that they have ever experienced Chi? How did you recognize it? How Did you feel? Do Tell........

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Ok. read ERU's post simply put......modern does not mean better or necessarily more knowledgeable,the ancients understood without beating a thing to death or overkill.
Again.......Does anyone here believe that they have ever experienced Chi? How did you recognize it? How Did you feel? Do Tell........

Yea Quicksilver, looks like we're on the same page Well about the Chi question... I realy don't know what to say cuz I don't realy know what Chi is and as I said haven't found a thing(at least in WC that I couldn't racionalise). But I hear a lot of people/even masters asigning skill like structure (able to resist strong force or emit strong force) to Chi or something mystical. In that sense, if thats Chi or how chinese saw this redirection of energy to the ground or from the ground than yes I do have experience with it. My instructure believed in it to a certein degree and also noted that sometimes when he does the from he can feel a tingling sensation up his spine(which is where the Chi is travelin/you want it to travel while doing the from as I understand it). He could also demonstrate a heat pulse from his hand on my hand. Infact one of my Sihings noted that he once felt this for an hour after Sifu did it on him.

It would realy help if somebody who has experience on the field could expain what Chi is in the WC context and in which techniqes or examples does it manifest...

But even though I admit I don't belive in the mystic part of the Chi I am still fascinated about it as I see it's theory very similar to what we today "know" about human body/life just under a diffrent name and from a diffrent perspective. Have to consider that they din't have X-rays or so much knowledge about stuff in those days but they still explained quite a lot with Chi and yin/yang theories which in my eyes often corelates with what we Westerners know as a "fact".

 

[Yoshiyahu]

There is nothing magical or mysterious about Chi. Chi is a chinese word for Enery. Your cells need energy to work. We all have electrical pulses through our bodies. Your cells get energy from the Sun, Oxygen and Food. Thats why certain foods provide energy for your cells. Your Chi also comes from Oxygen and Food. Some people disagree over weather or not we gain energy from the sun. But certain internal experts teach the sun, the earth, the trees, and other people we also gain Chi from. But anyway lets not get into that debate....

Chi seems mysterious because in the west their are not Great Caucasian minds speak to truth of Chi. But you also create or cultivate more Chi through Skill work. As you said before. Doing a Horse stance, Running laps, Doing push ups and sit ups, hitting the wall bag or heavy bag. Etc Etc. You acquire more skills and cultivate more Chi. Chi Kung means Enery Work or Energy skill. So people who do Chi Kung or Hei Gong are acquiring Chi Skills.

But so far your comparisons are right on the money concerning Wing Chun and Chi. I have little to disagree on. Others may debate on your practice. But Chi is just a word don't get wrapped up in it. Its like saying the word punch or kick. You need a label for it everyone can understand and use. With out label no one will truly understand what you mean. The problem with the theory of Chi is Kung Fu movies. We see people flying through air, Doing Hiyukiens and shooting fire balls out of their hand, Disappearing, leviatation or traveling through time and space. We we attribute this craziness to Chi. No No...its not that crazy or mystical its actually really scientifical as you said.

If you want to develop Chi three good ways to do it

1.Strecth your body from head to toe and breath while your doing it!
2.Do all the empty hand forms really slowly.
3.Sit in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma for twenty to thirty minutes daily.


This will aid you in your pursuit to cultivate Chi.

In my humble opinion!

Yea Quicksilver, looks like we're on the same page Well about the Chi question... I realy don't know what to say cuz I don't realy know what Chi is and as I said haven't found a thing(at least in WC that I couldn't racionalise). But I hear a lot of people/even masters asigning skill like structure (able to resist strong force or emit strong force) to Chi or something mystical. In that sense, if thats Chi or how chinese saw this redirection of energy to the ground or from the ground than yes I do have experience with it. My instructure believed in it to a certein degree and also noted that sometimes when he does the from he can feel a tingling sensation up his spine(which is where the Chi is travelin/you want it to travel while doing the from as I understand it). He could also demonstrate a heat pulse from his hand on my hand. Infact one of my Sihings noted that he once felt this for an hour after Sifu did it on him.

It would realy help if somebody who has experience on the field could expain what Chi is in the WC context and in which techniqes or examples does it manifest...

But even though I admit I don't belive in the mystic part of the Chi I am still fascinated about it as I see it's theory very similar to what we today "know" about human body/life just under a diffrent name and from a diffrent perspective. Have to consider that they din't have X-rays or so much knowledge about stuff in those days but they still explained quite a lot with Chi and yin/yang theories which in my eyes often corelates with what we Westerners know as a "fact".