Wing Chun As An Art

[anerlich]

I think the internet allows the type of trash talk that would never happen if the participants were in the same room. And then they aren't ever going ot want to be in the same room because of what they said on the internet.

I've only met one person in RL that I met on the web, HFY practitioner duende / Alex Oropeza from KFO, at his instigation when he visited Sydney. We had an excellent few hours chatting and comparing techniques under the railway at Circular Quay on a rainy morning. It was a great experience for me.

 

[anerlich]

My first Kung Fu instructor, David Crook, went out of his way to create relationships with fellow MA instructors, invite them and their students to his club to train, and generally foster good relationships. He also ran an annual weekend camp for a good while, where participants would get to see the approaches and forms of other styles, and make contacts and friends. He lived/lives in Canberra, a fairly small city. When a new instructor came to town and set up shop, he would call them up, welcome them to Canberra, invite them to contact him if he could help them in any way. He even hosted one guy to run his own classes in David's school just to help him get established and form a student body of his own. This is pretty much unheard of in Wing Chun these days, and it was rare when I was training with him back in the late 1970s.

Be like David.

At the risk of offending some who don't also study a grappling art (too bad), I too find BJJ a much more social and cohesive/supportive environment. Your opponents on the mat become your friends off it. Most instructors don't have a problem with you training with "rival instructors" at seminars or even regularly, and hungrily lap up anything you learned there and have to show them. You can't tell other people their approaches are wrong, learned from video (which in BJJ is not necessarily a bad thing), or their instructor is a fraud if they are beating you on the competition mats. I'be been invited to run classes at "rival" schools regularly to give their students a taste of a different approach. And vice versa. The ideas of "polluting" or "watering down" your Jiu Jitsu by training with someone from another organisation is rightly regarded as nonsensical.

I've made maybe two or three Wing Chun friends in RL outside of my instructor's organisation, and one of those only because he also does Jiu Jitsu.

I've made dozens of friends and acquaintances through Jiu Jitsu, half your day at a competition is spent talking to people you've trained with at various places and not seen for a while. Going to an IBJJF ref's course and chatting with the "rival instructors" during breaks is always fascinating.

Too bad if you haven't experienced this in martial arts, but the reason so many people are bringing up the differences between interclub and inter-organisation relationships in Wing Chun and BJJ is because they actually are REMARKABLE.

 

[KPM]

Huh? Are you still talking about this? I just can't take you seriously.

Then you seem to be missing MY point!

 

[KPM]

Valid reasons to not spar:

1. I'm an old fart and don't heal or recover nearly as well as I did in my younger years. So its not worth risking injury for me.
2. I just don't have the competitive nature or desire to actually try and hurt someone. I feel it is sufficient to learn from my classmates and colleagues that do spar and incorporate their insights into my training as much as possible.
3. I'm afraid of getting hurt (regardless of age) and am content to follow #2 above.

Not valid reasons to avoid sparring (cop outs):

1. My martial art is for self-defense only. Sparring is not beneficial for what we do.
2. My martial art is too dangerous to use in sparring.
3. My martial art has too many moves that I couldn't use in sparring, so sparring is not beneficial for what we do.

 

[drop bear]

Anyway. not just sparring but the concept of an open mat might be a thing to look at.

open mat bjj sessions | my Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you only want to discuss WC principle/technique from the WC point of view, you will limit yourself big time.

In a Judo forum, one Judo guy asked about a throw that you use

- one hand to pull your opponent's arm,
- one hand to press on his knee,
- spin your body and take him down.

After several months of discussion, no Judo guys could explain what throw that is. If you only allow Judo guys to discuss the throwing art, you can only discuss subject in Judo boundary and not beyond.

The following clip (1.30 - 2.20) shows the "hand break" throw that was discussed in that Judo forum.

If non-Judo guys can contribute information in a Judo forum, non-WC guys (or cross training guys) can contribute information in a WC forum as well.

Interesting. The throw in that video is very similar to our "Drop" (I think the Japanese name is Sumi Otoshi, but that's reaching far back in my memory).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

"It is true that some things are not appropriate for sparring. Certain things can be of little effect or even no effect at all if they are not done with full intent and full commitment, which would mean that they are then destructive. Destructive things, done with destructive intent, cannot be done in the context of sparring. I hope I don't need to explain that notion further, for anybody here.

These destructive things can be dialed back for use in sparring, but they are then ineffective. As such, it then becomes the responsibility of the sparring partner to acknowledge and honor the technique, when used in a non-destructive way. Maybe that is feasible, maybe it is not. It depends on the sparring partner, and the context and purpose of the sparring."

---Sorry. Still sounds like a bit of a "cop out" to me. What am I missing?

I think I get his point in this. Let me give an example from outside WC. One of the techniques in NGA (the art I teach) is descriptively called "Third Set Wrist Technique"...because it's a wrist technique in the 3rd set, of course.

Anyway, this is a lock that binds the small bone in the hand (pinky finger side). There's a very short distance between feeling the pain and actually breaking the hand (the only lock-related breaks I've seen in training were all from this technique). If this were used in sparring, without the intention of actually breaking the bone, it has to be slowed down as you get near the bind, and the opponent has to acknowledge that the lock is in process. If they don't acknowledge it, they can maintain speed (ignoring that you've slowed down for their safety) and escape it easily. If you don't let them escape, there's a very real chance you'll accidentally break that small bone (this occurred during some police training some years ago).

So, techniques like that can't reliably be used in sparring. There's just not a good non-destructive application that will work at speed (there's a takedown, but if the opponent resists it can turn quickly into the destruction).

So, while that doesn't mean we can't spar, it does mean that techniques like that one won't be part of free sparring.

 

[KPM]

^^^^^ I agree Gerry. But as I noted before and you seem to agree, the fact that you have to "dial back" certain techniques is not a legitimate reason not to spar. Michael went on about "legitmate reasons" not to spar and the only example he gave was this idea of having to dial back techniques. That's why I said it thought it was a "cop out" and that I agreed with most of what he was saying but not all and then asked him if I was missing something. Rather than just explaining what he actual thought were "legitimate reasons" not to spar and point out that this idea of having to dial back techniques was not what he really meant as a "legitimate reason"....he seemed to just miss my point and declare that I wasn't to be taken seriously!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

^^^^^ I agree Gerry. But as I noted before and you seem to agree, the fact that you have to "dial back" certain techniques is not a legitimate reason not to spar. Michael went on about "legitmate reasons" not to spar and the only example he gave was this idea of having to dial back techniques. That's why I said it thought it was a "cop out" and that I agreed with most of what he was saying but not all and then asked him if I was missing something. Rather than just explaining what he actual thought were "legitimate reasons" not to spar and point out that this idea of having to dial back techniques was not what he really meant as a "legitimate reason"....he seemed to just miss my point and declare that I wasn't to be taken seriously!

I agree with that concept. Having to dial back (or even avoid) entire sections of an art doesn't entirely preclude sparring. We still spar, but know that wrist locks and the like are simply not used there. Sometimes we get into trouble (in a sparring-appropriate way) when we automatically go for a technique we can't use in that context, and have to abandon it partway in. Of course, this creates a great opening for our opponent. But it doesn't make the sparring useless, and can even help us get better at recovering when something fails (which is bound to happen some percentage of the time in either "live" training or a defense situation).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Interesting. The throw in that video is very similar to our "Drop" (I think the Japanese name is Sumi Otoshi, but that's reaching far back in my memory).

The Judo "Sumi Otoshi" is the same as the Chinese wrestling "擰(Ning) - Wheeling" that you use both arms to twist on your opponent's shoulders to take him down.

The "hand break" is to use your hand to do your leg job so you can still have both legs on the ground for balance. IMO, it's Judo "Ashi Guruma" but you use your hand instead of your leg.

 

[drop bear]

I think I get his point in this. Let me give an example from outside WC. One of the techniques in NGA (the art I teach) is descriptively called "Third Set Wrist Technique"...because it's a wrist technique in the 3rd set, of course.

Anyway, this is a lock that binds the small bone in the hand (pinky finger side). There's a very short distance between feeling the pain and actually breaking the hand (the only lock-related breaks I've seen in training were all from this technique). If this were used in sparring, without the intention of actually breaking the bone, it has to be slowed down as you get near the bind, and the opponent has to acknowledge that the lock is in process. If they don't acknowledge it, they can maintain speed (ignoring that you've slowed down for their safety) and escape it easily. If you don't let them escape, there's a very real chance you'll accidentally break that small bone (this occurred during some police training some years ago).

So, techniques like that can't reliably be used in sparring. There's just not a good non-destructive application that will work at speed (there's a takedown, but if the opponent resists it can turn quickly into the destruction).

So, while that doesn't mean we can't spar, it does mean that techniques like that one won't be part of free sparring.

Yeah. Elbows. Ankle locks. Suplexes. There are a few things thrown into that category. If you are desperate you just take the position and move on.

I mean Hoe Noes I don't get acknowledged for my super dangerous sparring move.

I still don't see that as a big deal.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In the above "leg break" vs. "hand break" example, anything that you can do with your

- leg can be done with your hand.
- hand can be done with your leg.

WC has "sticky hand" training. Should WC also have "sticky leg" training as well?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In the above "leg break" vs. "hand break" example, anything that you can do with your

- leg can be done with your hand.
- hand can be done with your leg.

WC has "sticky hand" training. Should WC also have "sticky leg" training as well?

It does. Chi Gerk.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It does. Chi Gerk.

Not much WC discussion in this area yet. Those are all useful skills.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The Judo "Sumi Otoshi" is the same as the Chinese wrestling "擰(Ning) - Wheeling" that you use both arms to twist on your opponent's shoulders to take him down.

The "hand break" is to use your hand to do your leg job so you can still have both legs on the ground for balance. IMO, it's Judo "Ashi Guruma" but you use your hand instead of your leg.

I went back to my notes, and somehow I have Sumi Otoshi linked to that technique. Clearly (from that video) Sumi Otoshi is a variant of our "Two-hand Wheel Throw".

In any case, our "Drop" is very similar to the "hand break". In the aiki version, we have the weight shifted far to their heels. In the ju version (my terms), it's closer to the video you posted.

Yeah. Elbows. Ankle locks. Suplexes. There are a few things thrown into that category. If you are desperate you just take the position and move on.

I mean Hoe Noes I don't get acknowledged for my super dangerous sparring move.

I still don't see that as a big deal.

And it isn't. That's kind of the point. If you pull one of those out in sparring, you abandon it (and probably get hit for the opening you created), and then you move on.

 

[Flying Crane]

Valid reasons to not spar:

1. I'm an old fart and don't heal or recover nearly as well as I did in my younger years. So its not worth risking injury for me.
2. I just don't have the competitive nature or desire to actually try and hurt someone. I feel it is sufficient to learn from my classmates and colleagues that do spar and incorporate their insights into my training as much as possible.
3. I'm afraid of getting hurt (regardless of age) and am content to follow #2 above.

Not valid reasons to avoid sparring (cop outs):

1. My martial art is for self-defense only. Sparring is not beneficial for what we do.
2. My martial art is too dangerous to use in sparring.
3. My martial art has too many moves that I couldn't use in sparring, so sparring is not beneficial for what we do.

Ah, see the problem now. You ignored a big chunk of what i had said in that earlier post. There is a lot of context there, in that overlooked portion. Go back and read it again. Specifically the portion where i say that sparring can still be a valuable training tool, and go on to elaborate about how people decide for themselves if they feel the pros outweigh the cons.

Contex matters.

 

[KPM]

Ah, see the problem now. You ignored a big chunk of what i had said in that earlier post. There is a lot of context there, in that overlooked portion. Go back and read it again. Specifically the portion where i say that sparring can still be a valuable training tool, and go on to elaborate about how people decide for themselves if they feel the pros outweigh the cons.

Contex matters.

Which was why I asked if I was missing something before you dismissed me as being unworthy of your conversation. Because, again, the only example of a "legitmate reason" not to spar that you provided was that of having to dial back technique. Was that not what you meant?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

1. I'm an old fart and don't heal or recover nearly as well as I did in my younger years. So its not worth risking injury for me.

If you

- don't spar when you are in your 20, you are not smart enough.
- still spar when you are in your 80, you are also not smart enough.

 

[Flying Crane]

Which was why I asked if I was missing something before you dismissed me as being unworthy of your conversation. Because, again, the only example of a "legitmate reason" not to spar that you provided was that of having to dial back technique. Was that not what you meant?

I was pointing out, and I believe I clarified this at the end of my post, that this is a nuanced issue. It isn't all black-and-white. I was describing some of the nuances. There are reasons why some people see less value in sparring than other people do.

If you come back with a dismissive attitude and tell me my reasons are just a "cop out", then you are not worthy of my time and further discussion.

If you like sparring, do it. I never tell you not to.

If you can't understand that other people have reasons for seeing it differently, and you can't disagree with a modicum of respect for a different point of view, then we cannot have a discussion, or even share ideas in passing even if a deeper discussion does not build.

You should do what you feel is best for you. And you should respect other points of view, even if you disagree with them. Or you will continue to struggle to get any respect to from the other members of the forum.

 

[KPM]

I was pointing out, and I believe I clarified this at the end of my post, that this is a nuanced issue. It isn't all black-and-white. I was describing some of the nuances. There are reasons why some people see less value in sparring than other people do.

---You described one nuance and implied that it was a good reason not to spar. It didn't seem like a good one to me, so I point that out and was seeking some clarification.


If you come back with a dismissive attitude and tell me my reasons are just a "cop out", then you are not worthy of my time and further discussion.

---Well, sorry that you are so sensitive to someone questioning your somewhat ambiguous post. And very ironic that you are accusing me of having a "dismissive attitude" when you are the one that has declared that I "wasn't to be taken seriously" and just stated that I am "not worthy of your time and further discussion." I just questioned one point that you made, and you have come back and dismissed me and anything I have to say entirely!!! And you want to talk about a "dismissive attitude"????



If you can't understand that other people have reasons for seeing it differently,

----Well, I provide more examples of good reasons not to spar than you did. And I noted that I agreed with what you posted except for that one idea.


and you can't disagree with a modicum of respect for a different point of view, then we cannot have a discussion, or even share ideas in passing even if a deeper discussion does not build.

---So you are so sensitive that you think someone telling you that "dialing back techniques" as a reason not to spar is a cop out (meaning an invalid reason)....that you think you have been disrespected and have gotten all "bent out of shape" over it? Dude, you should know better than that after being around in the forums for as long as you have! Lighten up!