Wing Chun and Shaolin Weng Chun

[Marnetmar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weng_Chun

Are these two arts related in any way? From videos I have seen, they're both quite similar in their principles and movements. I really don't see how they can both have (nearly) the same name with the same meaning, the same principles, and not have some connection.

 

[Xue Sheng]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weng_Chun

Are these two arts related in any way? From videos I have seen, they're both quite similar in their principles and movements. I really don't see how they can both have (nearly) the same name with the same meaning, the same principles, and not have some connection.

Don’t know but they are spelled different in Chinese


Weng Chun 永春
Wing Chun 詠春

 

[Takai]

The truth is still the truth no matter where you find it. Human beings have need to "brand" what the do. This has a tendency to lead to a "mine" is better/more authentic/older/etc. than yours kind of argument. Martial arts are all related in the fact that "virtually" all started with the same premise...find a better way to protect yourself from the other person.

Different branches, same tree. Each one is the interpretation of what someone thought was "best". So in essence every martial is related but, is merely a different take on how the human body moves, a person reacts, etc. No better or worse, just different. I is not surprising to see similarities between systems that seem to be very far apart.

Enjoy the journey.

 

[mook jong man]

Quick You tube search brought these up.
From the looks of it they don't place much emphasis on relaxation.

[video=youtube_share;OeIURq8foOI]http://youtu.be/OeIURq8foOI[/video]

[video=youtube_share;-YnEztNioaM]http://youtu.be/-YnEztNioaM[/video]

[video=youtube_share;cWt63JDtRZI]http://youtu.be/cWt63JDtRZI[/video]

 

[J W]

Wing Chun Illustrated had a Wing Chun / Weng Chun article a while back, basically a chicken or the egg type of thing if I remember correctly. They have common roots according to the article.

 

[JPinAZ]

IMO, the videos don't accurately portray a great understanding of all of wing chun lineages. One clue is his historical reference to Leung Jan. There are several Wing Chun lineages that do not trace their lineage thru this person. Also, some of his conclusions regarding the technology differences aren't completely accurate.

One point he does bring up is the fact that Weng Chun uses Kiu Sau where modern Wing Chun does not. This is not accurate, because Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun does indeed have Kiu Sau bridging technologies within it's Chi Sau platform (where typically-seen Ip Man lineages do not, which is probably where he based this opinion). While they both have Kiu Sau, from what I understand of Weng Chun based on research and my limited experience, they are not the same.
Both Weng Chun & HFY have Heaven/Human/Earth concepts as integral parts of their systems, but Weng Chun's is very different when compared to HFY's H/H/E. Weng Chun is more animal style based H/H/E, while HFY's is not (HFY's being based more on time, space & energy concepts & the human form vs. animal style)

While maybe this confusing to some reading this, there are clear differences between weng chun & wing chun in concept as well as application. So he's correct in his conclusion that they are not the same, but he's not accurate in his reasoning from both a historical POV as well as conceptual understanding.

 

[Marnetmar]

Quick You tube search brought these up.
From the looks of it they don't place much emphasis on relaxation.

Indeed, it's almost as if Wing Chun has a Karate equivalent!

 

[geezer]

My old Chinese sifu believed that Wing Chun and Weng Chun were separate arts that had contact and shared certain techniques. This would be in line with the folklore or origin myths that trace both arts back to Southern Shaolin but with separate lineages ...except when Wong Wah Bo supposedly exchanged techniques with Leung Yee Tai bringing the long pole into the Wing Chun system.

 

[JPinAZ]

Geezer, I heard that too. But then, that can be said for most southern CMA yeah? (that they had contact with each other and shared techniques)

This is why I think the real analysis doesn't start until you get past the similar-shapes surface-level stuff and start loking at the concepts and mechanics of how each system works to really compare/contrast.

 

[Marnetmar]

I did some research and I felt I'd share this little update with you guys.

From what I've been able to understand, Wing Chun evolved from Yong Chun White Crane aka Fujian White Crane. Weng Chun on the other hand is not a type of Wing Chun or an ancestor of Wing Chun but rather a direct offshoot of Yong Chun that seemed to cross roads with Wing Chun, which may be how Weng Chun ended up getting sticky hands, unless white crane had a form of it or something similar beforehand...

Does this seem accurate?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yong Chun IS Wing Chun

Pinyin is yǒng chūn

yǒng chūn is Mandarin for Wing Chun

Both are written the same in Chinese 詠春 however in Cantonese it is pronounced Wing Chun and in Mandarin it is pronounced yong chun

The problem with researching Chinese martial arts in English is you can start running into dialect differences (Mandarin, Cantonese, Shanghai, etc) and Romanization differences (Pinyin, Wade-Giles, Yale) so you are always better off working from the characters if possible. If not you need to be very careful and make sure what dialect or Romanization you are working with

 

[Marnetmar]

Fujian White Crane originated in the town of Yǒngchūn in the Fujian province so it's also known as Yǒngchūn White Crane.

 

[geezer]

Fujian White Crane originated in the town of Yǒngchūn in the Fujian province so it's also known as Yǒngchūn White Crane.

Yes there is a town called Yongchun (or Wing chun in the Cantonese dialect) in Fujian, and there is a group of styles that are known as Yonchun Bai He (Bai He = White Crane, in Cantonese this would be Wing Chun Bak Hok) that many believe to be one of the sources of the Wing Chun of Fo'shan (Fatshan).

However the whole thing is complicated by the fact that the place name Younchun/Wing Chun is apparently not uncommon in China. For example there is a Wing Chun or Weng Chun district in Fo'shan as well. So you can't put too much weight on the name alone. You have to look at the systems themselves. And when you do that you see that Wing Chun has connections witha lot of southern boxing systems. And it has things that make it unique unto itself. Whatever the history, the various WC lineages have evolved into something quite seperate. Wing Chun is not Fujian Crane and it is not Weng Chun.

 

[Marnetmar]

Wow, I had no idea Yong/Wing Chun was such a common name throughout China. Disregard my theory then

 

[Marnetmar]

Hey, I'm back to be an annoyance again, but I am starting to think that at least parts of WC evolved from White Crane and then perhaps incorporated other elements of Southern boxing. I remembered the "Opera Boat" SLT video I'd posted a month or so ago and noticed that it actually lined up with White Crane's movements quite a bit more than the conventional SLT most Wing Chun schools today, though the movements were very hard and robotic.

For example, here's the San Zhan form from White Crane:

and here's the supposed "Opera Boat" form

and here is the SLT most of us know today:

Now then, I've heard a few Karate practitioners point out similarities between the SLT most of us know today and their Sanchin, Teshno or Seisan Katas. I thought this was a bit suspicious when I first checked it out for myself. The thing is however, Karate can be traced back to Fujian White Crane with solid data, and the "Opera Boat" SLT I posted looks far more similar to those three karate katas (and therefore white crane) than today's SLT that some karate practitioners already draw comparison to, while still incorporating a lot of the wing chun techniques we know.

I would think therefore that would support WC having some roots in white crane. However, I'm not an expert so I need to bounce these things off of more experienced people to see if I may be getting anywhere with this or not.

For the record, I'm not trying to find a more "authentic" version of WC. I'm just really curious about where WC came from since there's so little reliable evidence as to how it actually came about.

 

[cwk]

I come from a lineage ( cho family) that has direct red boat ancestry and can be traced back a long way. Our style is very relaxed and has more in common, energy wise, to some modern wing chun than that video of "red boat wing chun" or the karate katas.
Saying that, I've seen videos of Cho Gar sifus practicing our SLT hard and jerky for the camera and then practicing it the complete opposite way when in private.
Maybe that what the "red boat wing chun" sifu was doing in the video.
here's a clip of my sifu showing a short version of our SLT-

see?not hard at all.

Here's another guy doing a similar form but putting on a performance for the camera and people watching.

Completely diferent energy. It just goes to show that you can't judge anything by a video.

 

[Marnetmar]

Another update. Doing some more research, I've found that Weng Chun is not an art exclusively related to Andreas Hoffmann and his instructors, but rather Andreas Hoffman's branch is one of several branches of Weng Chun.

The proper term for Hoffmann's branch of the art is Lo Family Weng Chun. Lo Family Weng Chun originated when Lo Kai Tung and his brother Lo Yam Nam, both Hung Gar practitioners, learned Weng Chun from Fung Siu Ching, a student of Grandmaster Wong Wah Bo. Combining their Hung Gar knowledge with the Weng Chun they learned from Master Fung, they proceeded to create the Lo Family style of Weng Chun. Lo Kai Tung passed this style down to Lo Han Tai and Lo Yam Nam, who passed it down to Lo Chiu Woon, Who passed it down to Pak Cheung and Wai Yah. Wai Yah passed his knowledge to Lau Chi Leung, and Chang Kwang. Wai Yah, Pak Cheung and Chang Kwang then passed their knowledge down to Andreas Hoffmann.

As for Weng Chun as a whole, it turns out that it is not an exclusive art in and of itself but rather a manner of how 永春 and 詠春 are romanized. Both the Lo Family Branch and the Chan Wah Shun/Chan Yiu Min (son of Chan Wah Shun) branch (which is very far separated from the Lo Family and directly to Yip Man's branch) prefer to romanize the two terms as Weng Chun. While branches that trace back to Leung Bik and Lai Yip Chi use Wing Chun.

So Wing Chun and Weng Chun are not two exclusive arts but rather two different terms for the same art with the exception of the Lo Family branch which is a hybrid style.

 

[geezer]

So Wing Chun and Weng Chun are not two exclusive arts but rather two different terms for the same art with the exception of the Lo Family branch which is a hybrid style.

There are two schools of thought on this. One, as you say, holds that Weng Chun and Wing Chun are different lineages of the same system. If I remember correctly Pan Nam and some others on the mainland shared this view. The other point of view is that Wing Chun and Weng Chun began as separate systems that intermingled and exchanged some techniques back in the "Red Boat" days, but are still essentially distinct systems.

Hopefully, future research will shed more light on Wing Chun and it's relationship to other Southern fist systems, as well as to Yong Chun Bai He (Wing Chun White Crane) and so forth. But right now, what people are presenting as "factual research" reads more like legend, speculation and opinion. Could be true ...or not.

 

[Marnetmar]

What I'm getting at though isn't whether Weng Chun and Wing Chun are separate arts or not but the fact that both terms are romanizations of 永春 and 詠春 not unlike Wing Tsun or Ving Tsun, which once again is proven by the fact that Chan Wah Shun and his son Chan Yiu Min use the Weng Chun romanization in writing. When people talk about Weng Chun as its own system they're referring to Andreas Hoffmann's style, which does have a good chance of being its own art.

 

[geezer]

What I'm getting at though isn't whether Weng Chun and Wing Chun are separate arts or not but the fact that both terms are romanizations of 永春 and 詠春 not unlike Wing Tsun or Ving Tsun, which once again is proven by the fact that Chan Wah Shun and his son Chan Yiu Min use the Weng Chun romanization in writing. When people talk about Weng Chun as its own system they're referring to Andreas Hoffmann's style, which does have a good chance of being its own art.

Hmmm. I didn't realize that Chan Yiu Min's descendants use the characters 永春 (eternal spring) and not 詠春 (chant/praise the spring). Being in a branch of the Yip Man lineage, we use the latter.

There's a lot of this kind of thing that goes on. Since Wing Chun was taught through word and action, rather than through written texts, those students who later commited their learning to written notes often used different characters with similar sounds but different meanings. Then, when the characters are Romanized, the confusion is only compounded. Just consider the terms Siu Nim Tau, Siu Lam Tau, Sil Lum Tao.... But, hey it's all Wing Chun, or Weng Chun ..or Wing Tsun, or is that Tjun? Txun, Tshun,Tchun??? Oh, just forget it!