GM Ed Parker’s American Kenpo - Looking for Feedback

[Carol]

I regret drawing such an example in my post, since there has been more attention drawn to my reference to Mr. Tatum's Kenpo than there has been at answering the questions that Wayne pondered in his original post.

To clarify, in my mind was a comment from Mr. Hale that he made on MT in this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36509&page=2

Ed Parker's Kenpo is an art that carries the artists name, so who are we to change it? That's like saying I'd like to take the Mona Lisa off the wall and rework the smile to show a little more teeth.

If you want to change Ed Parker's Kenpo into something you like better do what Doc has done with SL4, or what Larry has done with Larry Tatum's Kenpo.

These are two men who came from the very heart of Ed Parker's Kenpo, but decided to go their own direction and respectfully changed the name of their art to reflect that change.

I say this will full respect to Ron Chapel, as he is my Mentor, and to Larry Tatum as a Larry Tatum black belt.

It was not my intention to put Mr. Tatum's Kenpo in any kind of glare, I was citing it as an example of a Kenpo instructor who is not using Mr. Parker's name for his Kenpo.

I apologize for any confusion I created, and I hope Mr. Hale won't take offense for me referencing his words the way I did.

Mike, I'm glad I'm not the only second-shift Kenpoist on MT :roflmao:

 

[MJS]

Mike, I'm glad I'm not the only second-shift Kenpoist on MT :roflmao:

Hey, now theres an idea....The American 2nd Shift Kenpo Karate Assoc.:lol:

 

[HKphooey]

Some of my questions/thoughts may seem to be directed at specific individuals, but they are not. They are directed to thoughts and ideas of many. I purposely did not mention SL4 in my post. I have heard many others not teach Form 4. I will be the first person to say the material can be better understood on a technique by technique basis. Just like most other styles, the katas can be used to help memorize the material. Just like a kid singing the alphabet. Does the child know how to use each letter in a word or a sentence? Maybe yes, maybe no.

I used the term "motion" kenpo beacause that seems to be the norm here on MT. Mr Nackford and many other use the term "motion" in their marketing. Makes sense since GM Parker was the Master of Motion, Magician in Motion, etc.

I took questions/statments and the answers I found on MT and other forums and tried to roll into one post. All the questions/aswers are not necessarily my beliefs.

My goal was to hear about peoples' experiences with GM Parker and any others in the kenpo community, not to pass judgement on anyone's beliefs. Each person has a reason for their actions and beliefs.

Anyone that has met me or conversed with me knows I just like learning something new about kenpo or any martial art.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

LTKKA - "Larry Tatum Kenpo Karate," Assn.

Thank you Captain Obvious! LOL. Sorry couldn't resist that one

 

[Carol]

Carol, you have hit upon something that I believe is a real problem in the martial arts.

But my issue isn't with incompetent business practices so much as it is the whole mixture of martial arts and business in the first place. I think that in many ways, the two just do not mix well, no matter what.

I can appreciate what you are saying. I don't fully agree for a couple of reasons. One is, good business practices do not necessarily equate with profit or even financial transactions. Example: managing expectations. Just becuase money does not change hands does not dismiss the importance of effectively managing a student's expectations.

Now I certainly understand that the business of martial arts is here to stay, and the availability of commercial schools are what enable many of us to train who would otherwise never have the opportunity. I also fall into that category so I cannot jump up and down on it too freely. But I do believe that it is very difficult to run a martial arts school as a business, and maintain the quality of what is being taught.

Agreed. Running a business is not easy period...and I don't know anyone in business that say it is. However, it is a task made far more difficult without appropriate education and training. Unfortunately given the dearth of business training in MA, it is difficult for me to point to an example of how the two can blend together.

I think that to automatically tie martial arts instruction with learning to run a business assumes that every black belt will want to do this, and that's just not true. Earning a black belt doesn't necessarily need to include business education. What is learned in the dojo should be martial arts. If one wants to open a school, then they can choose to get business education, or work with the owner of a successful school to learn how to do it.

As someone that doesn't envsion myself teaching, let alone opening my own school that is someting that I can definitely appreciate. However, in many discussions I have heard references to "getting black belts ready to open their own schools." I've seen some schools with leadership programs specifically geared towards training students to be instructors and even heading off on their own. Perhaps some of the training should not be in the dojo but instead come from working with SCORE or the SBA or training at a local college....as well as the folks wroking in the industry (just throwing out ideas here.) However, those resources will not offer the industry-specific knowledge that is also important to succeed.

But getting back to my main point here, with regard to this discussion. I never knew much about Mr. Parker. It wasn't until I joined Martial Talk that I began to see suggestions that Mr. Parker created a business enterprise to teach martial arts, and that sometimes meant what got taught might have been somehow "lacking". Prior to this, I had always just assumed that his students studied under him, and he gave them the goods, and if he gave them rank, that was it. But posts here on MT hint that that was not always the case, and many decisions, including decisions about giving rank, were made with a focus on how it would affect the business. In short, people were waived in to the next level so they could open another school and generate revenue and income, or to keep them happy and keep them coming back and paying fees.

To me, if this is really what happened, it was a disservice to the arts. It has caused a lot of confusion and even in-fighting among those who teach, and those who wish to learn. And it really comes back to the business of martial arts. If he hadn't made it his livlihood, and had instead taught fewer people and insisted on high standards, maybe these problems would not exist today, and there would be fewer questions about legitimacy and quality of what people are doing and teaching. But of course the downside is that fewer people today would be training in his art, or one of the many derivitives that have developed from it.

So in short, I personally think the answer is not so much in teachers getting a proper business training, but rather separating the business from the martial arts. While some commercial schools do a good job, I believe that overall quality would be much higher if teachers taught trusted students out of love for the art, rather than love of a paycheck. The price to the students, however, is that fewer of them would have the opportunity to learn. It's a very unfortunate dillema and I don't have the answer to it. But I think we can acknowledge that Mr. Parker fed the beast, and his legacy is certainly alive and well today.

If Mr. Parker did do the things you say, then I agree...he not only did a disservice to the arts, but also a disservice to his business model by dissolving the value of the arts. Good business does not mean "anything for a buck", good business is a workable model that maintains the value of the product.

I don't believe the answer is non-profit teaching as the only model, for a few reasons. Just as there are for-profit business models that do a disservice to the arts, there are also non-profit business models that do a disservice to the arts...such as the teachers that don't have the maturity, organizational skills, interpersonal skills, or moral compass to be able to succeed in a commercial environment. Also, eliminating cash doesn't eliminate greed...as such, a non-profit teacher can also make decisions that are a disservice to the arts.

Commercial schools also do quite a bit of service to martial artists that non-profits don't seem to offer. From my own experience over the summer, it is the larger commercial schools that offer midday classes that fit my work schedule. It the owner of a commercial school that wrote his home phone number on the back of his business card and said that he was willing to give me a private lesson anytime I need one...and then told me a story about how he offered a pilot a 3 hour lesson between 2AM and 5AM. They also take on the idjit noobies like me even though they aren't trusted students...but give them the opportunites to see if they can become one.

I guess where I differ is that I don't see banning commercial schools as being realistic, or even desireable. Instead, I'd rather see MA instructors recognize that organizational skills at some level are just as much a part of passing on their art as their fighting skills, and exploring how these skills can be use to achieve the maximum benefits.

 

[Flying Crane]

I can see your points, Carol. It's hard to know just what is the best answer. Maybe it lies somewhere between our suggestions.