Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

[Steve]

You know? I'd be impressed if someone strolled in from an ancient grappling system and could simply hang. I think it's unrealistic to expect them to win. But to just do okay would be a success. More importantly, I think it would be very informative for that person, good and bad.

Just looking for Japanese jujutsu in the Seattle area and came across this video from a local school. I have questions.

 

[dunc]

Just looking for Japanese jujutsu in the Seattle area and came across this video from a local school. I have questions.

Yeah that wasn’t technically sound at all

 

[Hanzou]

You know? I'd be impressed if someone strolled in from an ancient grappling system and could simply hang. I think it's unrealistic to expect them to win. But to just do okay would be a success. More importantly, I think it would be very informative for that person, good and bad.

Agreed. The only classical JJ practitioners who have appeared in any tournaments are ninjutsu practitioners.

They didn’t do so well.

 

[Hanzou]

Just looking for Japanese jujutsu in the Seattle area and came across this video from a local school. I have questions.

Good luck getting answers...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I feel this kinda depends....
There are fairly regular innovations, which can lead to major changes in focus that have a material effect on the “game”
In BJJ examples would be leg locks and gi entanglements (neither concept is new, but innovations in these areas have meant people’s strategies are fundamentally different now)
If you’re training in a particular style, say BJJ, then you do need at least a familiarity with the breadth of things that may get thrown at you (within that style) even if your own focus is on a smaller set of techniques
If your focus is just self defence then probably not so much
However, if your focus is on being a martial artist who can hold their own against other martial artists then I think you need to keep a broader horizon to at least pick up on new ideas that either you could incorporate effectively &/or techniques that are gaining a lot of popularity and therefor the probability of encountering them goes up

Agreed. If you’re looking at a narrow context, you want to stay up on everything new in that context. For broader contexts, you want to dabble at least a little with any new stuff you can find, either to adopt, or to adapt your defense. Whether that latter applies to self-defense depends what level you’re planning your prep for.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't know about this. Maybe the only advantage modern athletes have is better nutrition and fitness training.

They definitely have that. It would be hard to argue they don’t have better information on the technical aspects, too. Even if all of it existed in the past 5,000 years, it likely was more scattered, as transmission methods were more restrictive. One system today can contain more information, because it’s easier to find and share.

 

[drop bear]

You know? I'd be impressed if someone strolled in from an ancient grappling system and could simply hang. I think it's unrealistic to expect them to win. But to just do okay would be a success. More importantly, I think it would be very informative for that person, good and bad.

The whole logic basically works against that though.

If you have a system that is perfected in war. And martial arts hasn't evolved. Then all you need to do is perfect that system. If you perfect that system then you are the only person who can really judge its effectiveness.

If you enter a modern grappling environment. That just shows how removed from the original premise of martial arts has become. And getting schooled isn't really a reflection on your skill.

So the criteria for effectiveness isn't grappling skill against anyone. But knowledge of the style itself.

 

[Hanzou]

The whole logic basically works against that though.

If you have a system that is perfected in war. And martial arts hasn't evolved. Then all you need to do is perfect that system. If you perfect that system then you are the only person who can really judge its effectiveness.

If you enter a modern grappling environment. That just shows how removed from the original premise of martial arts has become. And getting schooled isn't really a reflection on your skill.

So the criteria for effectiveness isn't grappling skill against anyone. But knowledge of the style itself.

Judo would be the modernization of Japanese Jujutsu.

Unfortunately, some believe that it isn’t a complete martial art, and think that since Classical Jujutsu styles offer everything but the kitchen sink, ‘
it’s better by default.

 

[dunc]

Judo would be the modernization of Japanese Jujutsu.

Not really
Judo is the sportification of the throwing techniques of JJJ

 

[Hanzou]

Not really
Judo is the sportification of the throwing techniques of JJJ

Sport was part of it. Kanō also created Judo as a means of personal protection and improvement. This is why it was adopted by police forces and schools in early modern Japan.

 

[dunc]

Yeah but despite his assertion that people should train 50% judo (ie the sporting side) and 50% in the more traditional techniques (ie JJJ) everyone mostly focuses on on the sporting stuff

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah but despite his assertion that people should train 50% judo (ie the sporting side) and 50% in the more traditional techniques (ie JJJ) everyone mostly focuses on on the sporting stuff

But Judo contains traditional elements. Namely it’s kata which generally come from its classical JJ roots.

People get caught up in the removal of strikes, secret techniques, and weapons, but miss the point of that decision; You remove the “dangerous” stuff you can’t train full blast so that you can master the “safer” stuff in a training environment. When the time comes to execute that technique, you’re far more likely to pull it off. It’s really genius when you think about it.

This is why Judo successfully beat JJJ to achieve prominence in Japan, and why the Gracies were very successful in their challenge matches against TMAs decades later; Bjj adopted the same methodology. They simply added a street fighting element to it.

 

[dunc]

I agree 100% and this is the point I've been trying to make (badly)
In Judo/BJJ very few people train the traditional / self defence stuff to any degree of skill. Nowadays they focus 90+% on the sporting side
And very few people from JJJ do the sparring thing so miss out on the other side of the equation too

 

[Hanzou]

I agree 100% and this is the point I've been trying to make (badly)
In Judo/BJJ very few people train the traditional / self defence stuff to any degree of skill. Nowadays they focus 90+% on the sporting side
And very few people from JJJ do the sparring thing so miss out on the other side of the equation too

To be fair, the Gracie line of Bjj is very heavily invested in the self defense side of things. Rorian, Rickson, Royce, and Relson's schools are very much into the self defense stuff. You're not getting out of white belt without knowing how to counter headlocks, or dealing with punches while in the guard, etc.

Honestly, they're invested in it to their eventual detriment IMO.

 

[dunc]

I like what Rener an Ryron are doing to develop this
I also agree with the elements within the BJJ community that realise the lack of self defence training is an issue and are trying to correct this
I think the SD curriculum in BJJ is really limited and the depth of understanding of the techniques isn’t great. Hence they would benefit from incorporating some of the techniques from JJJ into the curriculum and training them under pressure

 

[Hanzou]

I like what Rener an Ryron are doing to develop this
I also agree with the elements within the BJJ community that realise the lack of self defence training is an issue and are trying to correct this
I think the SD curriculum in BJJ is really limited and the depth of understanding of the techniques isn’t great. Hence they would benefit from incorporating some of the techniques from JJJ into the curriculum and training them under pressure

I would disagree with it being a "correction". Gracie Jiujitsu's roots are based in self defense, and they used the competitive side to market their system to the masses. What you're seeing now is more like what you see with TMA and sports, where you have groups that want to adhere to the traditional way of doing things, and then you have groups that give the finger to tradition and want to push the competitive side of the art. However, none of it is for anything other than economic purposes. The Gracies adhere to old school Bjj because their schools simply aren't competitive on the sport side of things (Renzo's schools being the exception), and instead of embracing attributes that would make them more competitive, they stick doggedly to old school instruction. I mean, when you have someone like Rickson Gracie saying that stuff like the Berimbolo is BS, that simply carries a lot of weight within the community. However, pretty much no one believes in the invincibility of the Gracies anymore, and acknowledge that when you're looking for competitive Bjj, you might not want to attend a Gracie JJ school.

To their benefit, there's a huge market for self defense, and Gracie JJ schools are getting a lot of money from LEOs and other groups for what they teach. I mean, whenever I start training again, I'm going back to a Gracie JJ school because I have no interest in competitive Bjj, and I'm only looking for self defense at this stage in my life.

With that said, the sport-based Bjj groups have an argument to make that their version of the art is useful for self defense as well, and it's hard to argue against them. Some of the attributes developed from sport Bjj is very applicable to a self defense situation. The escapes, inverted Guards, leg locking, mobility, wrestling-based takedowns, submission chains, etc. isn't anything to scoff at. It also helps that a lot of sport-based Bjj practitioners have moved into MMA rather effortlessly.

Anyway, you feel that BJJ is limited self defense wise and could learn some things from traditional JJ. What would you say those techniques are?

 

[dunc]

I would disagree with it being a "correction". Gracie Jiujitsu's roots are based in self defense, and they used the competitive side to market their system to the masses. What you're seeing now is more like what you see with TMA and sports, where you have groups that want to adhere to the traditional way of doing things, and then you have groups that give the finger to tradition and want to push the competitive side of the art. However, none of it is for anything other than economic purposes. The Gracies adhere to old school Bjj because their schools simply aren't competitive on the sport side of things (Renzo's schools being the exception), and instead of embracing attributes that would make them more competitive, they stick doggedly to old school instruction. I mean, when you have someone like Rickson Gracie saying that stuff like the Berimbolo is BS, that simply carries a lot of weight within the community. However, pretty much no one believes in the invincibility of the Gracies anymore, and acknowledge that when you're looking for competitive Bjj, you might not want to attend a Gracie JJ school.

To their benefit, there's a huge market for self defense, and Gracie JJ schools are getting a lot of money from LEOs and other groups for what they teach. I mean, whenever I start training again, I'm going back to a Gracie JJ school because I have no interest in competitive Bjj, and I'm only looking for self defense at this stage in my life.

With that said, the sport-based Bjj groups have an argument to make that their version of the art is useful for self defense as well, and it's hard to argue against them. Some of the attributes developed from sport Bjj is very applicable to a self defense situation. The escapes, inverted Guards, leg locking, mobility, wrestling-based takedowns, submission chains, etc. isn't anything to scoff at. It also helps that a lot of sport-based Bjj practitioners have moved into MMA rather effortlessly.

Anyway, you feel that BJJ is limited self defense wise and could learn some things from traditional JJ. What would you say those techniques are?

I feel like I’m repeating myself a little so forgive me for that
The BJJ self defence curriculum is very superficial and the execution of many of the techniques is no where near the quality that you’d see in terms of the execution of the core ground techniques

In my view the curriculum (well executed) is probably fine for a bit of rough and tumble. It doesn’t cater well for strikes, grabs (of all sorts) and punches & weapons
The possibility of weapons being present changes a lot about the technique, positioning, primary controls etc etc and this I believe would be a big gain from JJJ
I think there would also be gains to be had by taking execution details from JJJ and building them into the existing curriculum
And finally the core of the SD curriculum is to deal with situations without striking and there are more efficient ways of solving for many of the situations covered in the BJJ SD curriculum if you allow for striking and a no-rules approach

In my experience of a Gracie academy probably less than 10% of people’s time is devoted to the SD side of things and to be honest most people don’t really try to refine or test the techniques

 

[drop bear]

I feel like I’m repeating myself a little so forgive me for that
The BJJ self defence curriculum is very superficial and the execution of many of the techniques is no where near the quality that you’d see in terms of the execution of the core ground techniques

In my view the curriculum (well executed) is probably fine for a bit of rough and tumble. It doesn’t cater well for strikes, grabs (of all sorts) and punches & weapons
The possibility of weapons being present changes a lot about the technique, positioning, primary controls etc etc and this I believe would be a big gain from JJJ
I think there would also be gains to be had by taking execution details from JJJ and building them into the existing curriculum
And finally the core of the SD curriculum is to deal with situations without striking and there are more efficient ways of solving for many of the situations covered in the BJJ SD curriculum if you allow for striking and a no-rules approach

In my experience of a Gracie academy probably less than 10% of people’s time is devoted to the SD side of things and to be honest most people don’t really try to refine or test the techniques

The self defence or weapon stuff still has to work though. Which for weapons especially is a sticking point.

And for striking, stand up, escape, take down defence concepts you are competing against MMA which works.

There is an argument that says say for example winning a self defense may mean getting up and running away. Which is different to the hierarchy of positions in BJJ. Who will generally re-guard to attack with submissions.

But it isn't that big a leap generally.

I mean it might be the difference between suggesting a standing choke rather than a rear naked. Which i assume most people could just do.

 

[Hanzou]

I feel like I’m repeating myself a little so forgive me for that
The BJJ self defence curriculum is very superficial and the execution of many of the techniques is no where near the quality that you’d see in terms of the execution of the core ground techniques

In my view the curriculum (well executed) is probably fine for a bit of rough and tumble. It doesn’t cater well for strikes, grabs (of all sorts) and punches & weapons
The possibility of weapons being present changes a lot about the technique, positioning, primary controls etc etc and this I believe would be a big gain from JJJ
I think there would also be gains to be had by taking execution details from JJJ and building them into the existing curriculum
And finally the core of the SD curriculum is to deal with situations without striking and there are more efficient ways of solving for many of the situations covered in the BJJ SD curriculum if you allow for striking and a no-rules approach

In my experience of a Gracie academy probably less than 10% of people’s time is devoted to the SD side of things and to be honest most people don’t really try to refine or test the techniques

I understand what you're saying. However, I think what some people miss is that if the core martial art you're practicing bleeds into the SD realm by default, you really don't need to spend a ton of time doing specific self defense exercises.

For example, if I'm well versed in standup and ground grappling, do I really need to know a specific technique on how to escape a headlock? If I'm a boxer, do I need to learn specific self defense tactics against someone trying to sucker punch me, or someone grabbing my collar and trying to punch me in the face? Bjj (and Boxing) provides self defense applications through the meat of their practice, so frankly the specific self defense stuff isn't really all that necessary. In both of my self defense situations, I didn't use anything from the self defense angle I was taught at Relson's school. In the most dangerous situation, I did a Triangle choke from Guard, so it was basic ground fighting knowledge that saved my head from getting bashed into hamburger meat.

This is why I said the Gracie's self defense focus will eventually be to their detriment because while what they're offering has merit, some of their sport-based competitors are simply offering superior Bjj. It's really not that difficult to take a black belt from 10th Planet, or ATOS, and train them on how to deal with taking strikes while grappling.

This is also why I'm highly skeptical of systems that overload on the self defense aspects and miss that none of it matters if you can't fight to begin with.

 

[Buka]

I first trained with Rickson several years before the first UFC. He taught us a lot about how to strike while grappling. We were pleased that he did.