Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

[drop bear]

This is part of why I advise people to find a martial art that they really love to train. Because if they don't, it doesn't matter how great the art is, they won't put the necessary work in to get really good. In general, someone who trains a 50% efficient art with 100% dedication will beat someone who trains a 100% efficient art with 10% dedication.

I think that is a much bigger conversation.

 

[drop bear]

I'm trying to figure out if you were disagreeing with something I said, or just quoting me while making a related statement.

There are some important factors you missed out.

The related information changes the what is correct in the original statement.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are some important factors you missed out.

The related information changes the what is correct in the original statement.

I'm not sure how, really. You talk about narrowness winning within competition and you talk about poor quality in SD (which I assume is another shot at SD-oriented training). Neither of which actually seems to address anything I said.

 

[Steve]

This is part of why I advise people to find a martial art that they really love to train. Because if they don't, it doesn't matter how great the art is, they won't put the necessary work in to get really good. In general, someone who trains a 50% efficient art with 100% dedication will beat someone who trains a 100% efficient art with 10% dedication.

I think this is not necessarily true. 10% dedication in a superior training program coupled with routine application is going to give you better, more reliable results than training alone, no matter how good the training.

Similarly 100% dedication to something that is fundamentally unsound is just wasted energy, like trying to cut a tree down with a hammer.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think this is not necessarily true. 10% dedication in a superior training program coupled with routine application is going to give you better, more reliable results than training alone, no matter how good the training.

Similarly 100% dedication to something that is fundamentally unsound is just wasted energy, like trying to cut a tree down with a hammer.

That's why my example was 100% dedication to a 50% efficient program vs 10% dedication to a 100% efficient program. If the art/training program is essentially useless (let's say 5% efficient for an example), then the pseudo-math works out differently.

 

[Hanzou]

Honest question; Would classical JJ practitioners fare as well as the Bjj practitioners did in that ground and pound test with boxing gloves?

I’m forced to say “no”.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Honest question; Would classical JJ practitioners fare as well as the Bjj practitioners did in that ground and pound test with boxing gloves?

I’m forced to say “no”.

In my experience, that's much more school-dependent in classical JJ than for BJJ. I've met some who were surprisingly adept at their ground work who - so far as they tell their story - get that entirely from their JJ training. But those are the exceptions, and come from schools where they really work on ground work.

 

[Hanzou]

In my experience, that's much more school-dependent in classical JJ than for BJJ. I've met some who were surprisingly adept at their ground work who - so far as they tell their story - get that entirely from their JJ training. But those are the exceptions, and come from schools where they really work on ground work.

I'm talking about in general, not just on the ground. I'd like to see some classical JJ guys paired up with guys in boxing gloves to see how they'd do.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure how, really. You talk about narrowness winning within competition and you talk about poor quality in SD (which I assume is another shot at SD-oriented training). Neither of which actually seems to address anything I said.

Good will generally beat applicable when it comes to self defence. At which point it becomes applicable.

SD has no real way to determine good. And so no way to determine applicable. And with that extra information it changes how your statement kind of works.

 

[drop bear]

I'm talking about in general, not just on the ground. I'd like to see some classical JJ guys paired up with guys in boxing gloves to see how they'd do.

Sports jujitsu?

 

[Hanzou]

Sports jujitsu?

Nah, the classical JJ stuff. Classical JJ guys don't consider Sport JJ to be "real" Jujitsu.

 

[drop bear]

Nah, the classical JJ stuff. Classical JJ guys don't consider Sport JJ to be "real" Jujitsu.

I thought there was a slap fighting JJJ version somewhere.

 

[Steve]

That's why my example was 100% dedication to a 50% efficient program vs 10% dedication to a 100% efficient program. If the art/training program is essentially useless (let's say 5% efficient for an example), then the pseudo-math works out differently.

Tony, I think the point is that it’s all pseudo math, and also that you’re (imo) overvaluing effort/dedication and completely devaluing (through omission) simply using skills in context.

I’ll take a guy who trains half assed in a functional skill set that he actually uses regularly over someone who trains like a beast in a functional skill set that he never uses. Nothing beats good old fashioned experience.

 

[Hanzou]

I thought there was a slap fighting JJJ version somewhere.

I think that’s Eddie Bravos thing.

 

[drop bear]

I think that’s Eddie Bravos thing.

Yeah I tried to find it and that is all I got. But I remember it being a thing ten years ago because I had an instructor jump in one once without realising the difference.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm talking about in general, not just on the ground. I'd like to see some classical JJ guys paired up with guys in boxing gloves to see how they'd do.

Same statement would hold. There are some who would show well, but I’d expect lower consistency than with BJJ.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Good will generally beat applicable when it comes to self defence. At which point it becomes applicable.

SD has no real way to determine good. And so no way to determine applicable. And with that extra information it changes how your statement kind of works.

No, it really doesn’t.

 

[Steve]

No, it really doesn’t.

compelling counterpoint.

 

[drop bear]

This is part of why I advise people to find a martial art that they really love to train. Because if they don't, it doesn't matter how great the art is, they won't put the necessary work in to get really good. In general, someone who trains a 50% efficient art with 100% dedication will beat someone who trains a 100% efficient art with 10% dedication.

It definitely helps momentum to have a regular training program that meshes with you.

The issue a bit with likes and lothes is that it can sometimes come from a weird place. So I don't like arts I am not good at. Which for me is stand up wrestling.

But the better I get at it the more I like it.

So now this is the opposite in that I don't get good because I love the art. I love the art because I am good.

And theoretically the me who is good at wrestling is a better fighter than the me who isn't.

And being well rounded also means I can enjoy more martial arts opportunities.

Especially in self defense because the basic concepts don't really change much. I am still trying to seek positional and mechanical advantage. I am still trying to use timing and mobility and technique to do that.

And so learning those foundations is what makes the fun part fun.

I think.

 

[drop bear]

compelling counterpoint.

The thing is this is why we have some of the applicable SD stuff we see.

If I punch you in the crotch and you get off me. That is suddenly street specific. Not because it is statistically the best move. But because it works against the people I use it on.