Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

[lklawson]

I would also add that if people had this knowledge before and we have 'forgotten' it through the years, the methods used to preserve and hand down this information may not be as good as they are now so it is a question that really cannot be answered unless old texts are unearthed that demonstrate that this knowledge existed.

I don't particularly disagree. In many cases, the only way things were handed down was from one person to the next, with little to none being written down or recorded. It's easy for things to get lost or forgotten.

I do appreciate that to call our generation the smartest and the most evolved with better and completely new systems seems a little arrogant. Just in the shear volume of time you stated it would be strange to think someone in our ancestry didn't stumble on to any or all of these techniques that we 'claim' to be new and evolved at one point in time in history. Would they have had the time and resources or even forethought to pass it down is where I think we have an advantage over the previous generations.

Sometimes it's just that no one cared anymore. It may have been seen as not worth the effort to preserve. For most cultures, when the bow was invented, the at'latl was discarded and few, if any thought it worth preserving. It's not particularly difficult to posit a culture where it was really important to know how to break people with bare hands one generation, and then the next, for cultural, social, or technological reasons, suddenly that knowledge is 2nd or 3rd tier. And if it's considered a "peasant skill" then it is less likely to be preserved by people with the money and resources to record it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Says the guy who doesn’t know what a guillotine choke looks like.....

So you like to claim.

But you were responding to MY point.

Because you continue to misrepresent what I'm writing. duh

 

[Yokozuna514]

I don't particularly disagree. In many cases, the only way things were handed down was from one person to the next, with little to none being written down or recorded. It's easy for things to get lost or forgotten.

Sometimes it's just that no one cared anymore. It may have been seen as not worth the effort to preserve. For most cultures, when the bow was invented, the at'latl was discarded and few, if any thought it worth preserving. It's not particularly difficult to posit a culture where it was really important to know how to break people with bare hands one generation, and then the next, for cultural, social, or technological reasons, suddenly that knowledge is 2nd or 3rd tier. And if it's considered a "peasant skill" then it is less likely to be preserved by people with the money and resources to record it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

The breadth of your knowledge in ancient weapons never ceases to amaze me. Never thought I would hear anyone bring up an at'latl in a current conversation. Thank you for that !

 

[Hanzou]

Ummm, not quite. You can watch the video and try it but it MAY improve your previous technique but WATCHING and trying it out in your local club will more than likely NOT result in the leaps you talking about because the other side of the equation is TESTING out what you have seen against opponents that are BETTER than you. This is a key ingredient to improving and one that is often overlooked. Better competition forces you to come up with solutions that will work for you in that situation. Simply having access to information is not enough. Being challenged to learn it and understand it under a multitude of high pressure situations will give you a better opportunity to grow your performance. This is true of not only BJJ but any MA system worth it's salt. Without testing there is no truth (Mas Oyama).

Trying it out at your local club is testing, because there tends to be quite a few people at a club who are better than you are. Competition would be another form of testing, and again if I'm subbing people left and right, then my variation of the technique is repeated within the Bjj community.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Trying it out at your local club is testing, because there tends to be quite a few people at a club who are better than you are. Competition would be another form of testing, and again if I'm subbing people left and right, then my variation of the technique is repeated within the Bjj community.

Yes I am not against this statement. It is testing however I thought I would point out that there is testing and then there is TESTING. If we stick to the concept that newer techniques are being conceived all the time now just because we have access to the information (eg: Danaher's videos) then we remove the element of QUALITY of instruction and instructor. That, to me, is essential and the ingredient you left out of the initial statement you made the premise being that having access to information will allow for the evolution of newer techniques. That is not entirely correct or complete but that is fine. I do not always write complete thoughts whenever I post (try as I might). The interaction on this board helps to bring the thoughts of an imperfect writer such as myself to better fruition.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes I am not on against this statement. It is testing however I thought I would point out that there is testing and then there is TESTING. If we stick to the concept that newer techniques are being conceived all the time now just because we have access to the information (eg: Danaher's videos) then we remove the element of QUALITY of instruction and instructor. That, to me, is essential and the ingredient you left out of the initial statement you made the premise being that having access to information will allow for the evolution of newer techniques. That is not entirely correct or complete but that is fine. I do not always write complete thoughts whenever I post (try as I might). The interaction on this board helps to bring the thoughts of an imperfect writer such as myself to better fruition.

Which is why I used myself as an example. For me, learning Danaher's technique wouldn't be too much an issue since I understand the starter and finisher of that sequence. The only learning curve would be the transition, which is fairly easy to work through after a few drills and rounds with a partner. Obviously learning from Danaher himself would be preferable, but if it works, it works.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Which is why I used myself as an example. For me, learning Danaher's technique wouldn't be too much an issue since I understand the starter and finisher of that sequence. The only learning curve would be the transition, which is fairly easy to work through after a few drills and rounds with a partner. Obviously learning from Danaher himself would be preferable, but if it works, it works.

Learning from Danaher and trying the techniques against students of a higher calibre (perhaps higher than the average local school is more precise a statement) could result in 'newer' techniques being 'found' faster. There is an inherent flaw with training with and against solely people from your local club. The longer you train with and against them the more you learn their strengths and weaknesses and the ability to grow from being pushed diminishes.

 

[drop bear]

I don't know about this. Maybe the only advantage modern athletes have is better nutrition and fitness training.

Not really.

What Breaking the 4-Minute Mile Taught Us About the Limits of Conventional Thinking

 

[drop bear]

Really? I’ve never seen it drilled or pressure tested at a BJJ academy

You have never seen collar tie stuff in BJJ?

 

[lklawson]

I don't know about this. Maybe the only advantage modern athletes have is better nutrition and fitness training.

Besides nutrition, one of the biggest advantages we have today is medical recovery. While we have long known how to break a body, the technology required to artificially repair it or artificially accelerate its repair is better today. While Galen pioneered the concept of traction 2,000 years ago, it's only recently that our technology has progressed to where we can reliably reattach tendons and repair, even replace, joints. Where 100 years ago, a blown ACL would would put a Judoka out of commission for pretty much the rest of his life, or a torn rotator cuff would end a wrestler's career, now these can often be repaired or encouraged to heal at a greatly accelerated rate.

Heck, even just recognizing when someone might have a concussion or TBI and being able to use imaging technology to diagnose, then treat, increases a boxer's ability to continue his sport.

While nutrition helps to improve performance in the sport, medical technology improves an athlete's longevity.

We really haven't learned a ton about how to break a human body in the last few millennia. But we've gotten immeasurably better at putting it back together again.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[drop bear]

I think that it's the height of hubris to believe that in more than 5,000+ years of documented grappling that anyone has "improved" on anything. Anything we do now has been done in the past 5,000 years. The only things that change are the rules. When the French "invented" Greco-Roman wrestling by rebranding local French wrestling styles, it was not the same as actual Grecian or Roman wrestling which, from the images and accounts, had many techniques and strategies which are not present in frenchie wrestling specifically because of the rule sets. Then someone comes along and throws out the Greco-Roman rule set, applies one more similar to the ancient rules, adapts the techniques and strategies they know to fit the new rule set, then pats themselves on the back for being "innovative" by re-learning how to do things that the Greeks were documented doing 3,000 years ago. Good job.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

We can look at the people who win grappling competitions and the systems they use.

Very few historical grapplers are dominant.

 

[lklawson]

We can look at the people who win grappling competitions and the systems they use.

Very few historical grapplers are dominant.

My point is that without the Hot Tub Time Machine, you don't actually know that.

 

[dunc]

You have never seen collar tie stuff in BJJ?

I’ve never seen anyone training defences against a grab and punch scenario in BJJ

 

[drop bear]

My point is that without the Hot Tub Time Machine, you don't actually know that.

Who wins grappling competitions? We can use Google.

 

[lklawson]

Who wins grappling competitions? We can use Google.

Google has a time machine? They've been holding out!

 

[drop bear]

Google has a time machine? They've been holding out!

Modern people do old timey systems. Japanese jujitsu for example.

 

[lklawson]

Modern people do old timey systems. Japanese jujitsu for example.

I think you missed the point again.

I have an all-day class to teach tomorrow and I've got to get some things done before then so I guess I have to leave this until next week.

I expect to come back to 12 more pages and hundreds of posts of silliness. I know you won't disappoint.

 

[drop bear]

I think you missed the point again.

Would it be something about ancient texts that show the real secret of fighting but only you can interpret them?

 

[Hanzou]

We can look at the people who win grappling competitions and the systems they use.

Very few historical grapplers are dominant.

I would love to see someone stroll into a major grappling competition using some ancient grappling system, or some Koryu Jujutsu and actually win some tournaments.

We all know that won’t happen though.

 

[Steve]

I would love to see someone stroll into a major grappling competition using some ancient grappling system, or some Koryu Jujutsu and actually win some tournaments.

We all know that won’t happen though.

You know? I'd be impressed if someone strolled in from an ancient grappling system and could simply hang. I think it's unrealistic to expect them to win. But to just do okay would be a success. More importantly, I think it would be very informative for that person, good and bad.