Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

[Hanzou]

I was just correcting the analogy, which failed to reach that point.

Fair enough.

I suppose the main point is that the belief that martial arts hasn’t improved over the course of history is rather flawed. For example, the top guys in Bjj now would school the Gracie family of the 90s. Also MMA has clearly evolved to the point where the guys coming in now are far more advanced than MMA fighters from years past. You could say the same for just about any combat sport.

If MA has improved to that extent in a little over 20 years, why would we believe a martial art largely unchanged from hundreds of years ago would be valid now (if it was ever valid in the first place)?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Fair enough.

I suppose the main point is that the belief that martial arts hasn’t improved over the course of history is rather flawed. For example, the top guys in Bjj now would school the Gracie family of the 90s. Also MMA has clearly evolved to the point where the guys coming in now are far more advanced than MMA fighters from years past. You could say the same for just about any combat sport.

If MA has improved to that extent in a little over 20 years, why would we believe a martial art largely unchanged from hundreds of years ago would be valid now (if it was ever valid in the first place)?

I agree that knowledge and strategy has advanced, in general. The question is whether some of the techniques are substantially different. Sure, some are, but is that true of a lot of them? I don't really know what proportion, nor how significant most of those changes are from a not-an-elite-fighter point of view.

 

[Hanzou]

I agree that knowledge and strategy has advanced, in general. The question is whether some of the techniques are substantially different. Sure, some are, but is that true of a lot of them? I don't really know what proportion, nor how significant most of those changes are from a not-an-elite-fighter point of view.

Well I don’t know about new techniques. I would just say that existing techniques have (at the very least) been refined and experimented with to create new opportunities and applications. The Bjj Guard and it’s myriad of variations being a prime example.

 

[drop bear]

The competition element helps for evalutation, for sure.

Not just the competition. As a layman I can see that they seem to be able to shoot things pretty effectively.

Now we could then go to JJJ and say let's see some randori.

Google Image Result for https://media3.giphy.com/media/jUwpNzg9IcyrK/giphy.gif

 

[dunc]

You mean this?

Interestingly, they found that the easiest counter (overhand and spin) worked the best.

Yeah this is a great example
Super experienced grapplers learning how to deal with a grab and a punch for the first time
And it’s one of a very tiny number of videos out there

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

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@Monkey Turned Wolf

 

[dunc]

I agree that knowledge and strategy has advanced, in general. The question is whether some of the techniques are substantially different. Sure, some are, but is that true of a lot of them? I don't really know what proportion, nor how significant most of those changes are from a not-an-elite-fighter point of view.

I feel this kinda depends....
There are fairly regular innovations, which can lead to major changes in focus that have a material effect on the “game”
In BJJ examples would be leg locks and gi entanglements (neither concept is new, but innovations in these areas have meant people’s strategies are fundamentally different now)
If you’re training in a particular style, say BJJ, then you do need at least a familiarity with the breadth of things that may get thrown at you (within that style) even if your own focus is on a smaller set of techniques
If your focus is just self defence then probably not so much
However, if your focus is on being a martial artist who can hold their own against other martial artists then I think you need to keep a broader horizon to at least pick up on new ideas that either you could incorporate effectively &/or techniques that are gaining a lot of popularity and therefor the probability of encountering them goes up

 

[drop bear]

I feel this kinda depends....
There are fairly regular innovations, which can lead to major changes in focus that have a material effect on the “game”
In BJJ examples would be leg locks and gi entanglements (neither concept is new, but innovations in these areas have meant people’s strategies are fundamentally different now)
If you’re training in a particular style, say BJJ, then you do need at least a familiarity with the breadth of things that may get thrown at you (within that style) even if your own focus is on a smaller set of techniques
If your focus is just self defence then probably not so much
However, if your focus is on being a martial artist who can hold their own against other martial artists then I think you need to keep a broader horizon to at least pick up on new ideas that either you could incorporate effectively &/or techniques that are gaining a lot of popularity and therefor the probability of encountering them goes up

You short cut that issue with broader concepts. It is how MMA handles BJJ to a certain degree.

So defence against a Guillotine choke becomes good posture.

Tyrannosaurus arms becomes the defence to basically every standing arm bar.

So for self defence you don't need all the pieces of the puzzle just the sides.

So a boxer may not understand grab and hit. But they may understand space. If you cut of the space in a clinch you close of striking opportunities.

 

[dunc]

You short cut that issue with broader concepts. It is how MMA handles BJJ to a certain degree.

So defence against a Guillotine choke becomes good posture.

Tyrannosaurus arms becomes the defence to basically every standing arm bar.

So for self defence you don't need all the pieces of the puzzle just the sides.

So a boxer may not understand grab and hit. But they may understand space. If you cut of the space in a clinch you close of striking opportunities.

Yes I think that’s generally true, but getting surprised by something can often screw you up
And if you messed up and end up in a bad spot with something you’ve never experienced getting applied, it’s kinda hard to figure out the defence/escape from scratch

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah this is a great example
Super experienced grapplers learning how to deal with a grab and a punch for the first time
And it’s one of a very tiny number of videos out there

In Gracie JJ, there’s a few techniques that deal with that grab, not necessarily the punching aspect. I could be wrong about that. It’s been awhile since I’ve done their self defense -based stuff.

 

[dunc]

Yes I think thats it

 

[drop bear]

In Gracie JJ, there’s a few techniques that deal with that grab, not necessarily the punching aspect. I could be wrong about that. It’s been awhile since I’ve done their self defense -based stuff.

It doesn't matter. There are judo guys or wrestlers who can break your structure and take advantage of grabs.

But most people can't.

If you grab me and I collar tie you. I will probably have the mechanical advantage unless you have some serious grip skills.

 

[dunc]

It doesn't matter. There are judo guys or wrestlers who can break your structure and take advantage of grabs.

But most people can't.

If you grab me and I collar tie you. I will probably have the mechanical advantage unless you have some serious grip skills.

But we can agree that the scenario (a collar grab and punch) is a pretty common self defence situation that, for a variety of reasons, is not regularly trained in academies etc?

 

[drop bear]

But we can agree that the scenario (a collar grab and punch) is a pretty common self defence situation that, for a variety of reasons, is not regularly trained in academies etc?

The defence to that attack is regularly trained though.

Concepts not scenarios.

 

[dunc]

The defence to that attack is regularly trained though.

Concepts not scenarios.

Really? I’ve never seen it drilled or pressure tested at a BJJ academy

 

[Hanzou]

It doesn't matter. There are judo guys or wrestlers who can break your structure and take advantage of grabs.

But most people can't.

If you grab me and I collar tie you. I will probably have the mechanical advantage unless you have some serious grip skills.

True. The only dangerous variable is the punching, but if the grappler closes the distance I don't think a lot of those punches will be all that effective.

With that said, I typically don't see collar grab punch stuff. I typically see people getting sucker punched by assailants.

 

[lklawson]

Skill yes, the same level of skill, no,

Nope. The fundamentals are exactly the same. I speak from a certain level of expertise on this matter.

because the modern weapon is more accurate, reliable, and easier to handle than the antique.

All three of those claims are wrong. There are important ways that "more modern" firearms are distinctly different and could add advantages, but not the ones you listed.

This shows, yet again, that you are not qualified to argue on the subject. You should stop talking and listen & learn.

 

[lklawson]

Are the skills developed to actually fight though?

Yes. He already stipulated to that, as should you. Or do you want to look at the video he posted, again?

 

[lklawson]

Yeah, they're actually shooting things.
I think you actually misunderstand the "playing dress up' horseshiz point. (BTW, horseshiz??? LOL).

The comment is not directed at you, sir. As we agreed, the pejorative "LARP" and "dress up" have been misapplied many times, by others, and have been so again here in this thread (again, not by you).

I think it's almost exactly the opposite of what you articulate above. The problem isn't with people who dress up and actually learn functional skills that they apply in a particular context. SCA, these cowboys, HEMA, Dog Brothers, BJJ, MMA... it's all people learning something, and then doing that thing. They practice, they train, they perform, and they get better.

The problem IS with people who assume the trappings of an activity without actually engaging in the activity. Pretending to be a fighter. Pretending to be a self defense expert. Pretending to be a ninja. It's fine to pretend, like being an Elven Sorcerer out in the park on a sunny afternoon casting lightning bolts at your buddies. It's fine to pretend to be a ninja sneaking around the park and tumbling with your friends. But it's just healthy to understand the difference between real life and make believe. I think if the cowboys were using dime store cap guns, we'd be having a different discussion.

I don't materially disagree. My assertion is that some (here and elsewhere) seem to automatically assume that because some practitioner is engaging in what they call "playing dress up" and "LARPing" that they are not also gaining applicable skills.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I feel this kinda depends....
There are fairly regular innovations, which can lead to major changes in focus that have a material effect on the “game”

I think that it's the height of hubris to believe that in more than 5,000+ years of documented grappling that anyone has "improved" on anything. Anything we do now has been done in the past 5,000 years. The only things that change are the rules. When the French "invented" Greco-Roman wrestling by rebranding local French wrestling styles, it was not the same as actual Grecian or Roman wrestling which, from the images and accounts, had many techniques and strategies which are not present in frenchie wrestling specifically because of the rule sets. Then someone comes along and throws out the Greco-Roman rule set, applies one more similar to the ancient rules, adapts the techniques and strategies they know to fit the new rule set, then pats themselves on the back for being "innovative" by re-learning how to do things that the Greeks were documented doing 3,000 years ago. Good job.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk