Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

[punisher73]

My impression is that BJJ in Brazil is like Boxing in America, a sport that largely attracts kids who are at risk, poor, and are looking for something that will help them navigate growing up in a tough place. I think casually suggesting it's for punks and gang members because some random exchange student said so is pretty crappy... along the lines of suggesting that boxing is only for punks and gang members because some kid from an upper middle class neighborhood sadi so. I'd wager your Brazilian exchange student didn't come from the favela, and I'd guess he has no idea what he's talking about.

Well, if you read enough history of BJJ this attitude was very common among Brazilians during its time. The BJJ schools (and Lutre Liva) liked to go out and fight and thus the stereotype. I don't think its like boxing in America because there isn't an attitude that these boxers are going out and getting into fights with each other or picking fights. I should have added the details that I had already heard this reputation prior to speaking with the student and it did reinforce that perception.

For reference, here is a forum discussing this very thing about it in Brazil back in 2013, so it wasn't just me hearing one person's opinion it was based on hearing and reading the same thing over and over. I trained a limited time in BJJ and have friends that have been at it a very long time and have heard the samething through training in it as well.

Is BJJ Really That Big A Deal, in Brazil?

 

[BrendanF]

That's nice. But I didn't respond to you, so...
I responded to Drop Bear, who asked, essentially, 'who does?', the implication (as I read it) being that nobody had experience fighting with weapons.

Yes. And my point initially was... the people who created and perpetuated the arts we are discussing did have that experience. So maybe there might be something there of value.

My point in clarifying was that 'having a knife pulled on me' doesn't fall into the same category of experience, and is tangential to the original point.

 

[Hanzou]

Well, just to be clear, I think folks need to follow their passions. I have always been a misfit and a nerd, and have a genuine soft spot for misfits and nerds. I roast coffee, make soap, am learning to make pottery, play tabletop RPGs with my friends and can tick off most of the "nerd" stereotypes. And my wife has the rest covered (she was a "mathlete" for Pete's sake). Point is, if you want to train in traditional Japanese martial arts, knock yourself out. If you want to train in a fake or ineffective brand of martial arts because it's cool looking, go for it. If you want to pretend you're a ninja or actually participate in LARP, have a blast. I won't judge you if you don't judge me.

But if you're doing something like the above and think you're ACTUALLY learning to fight... or if you're training as a ninja in the land down under, and ACTUALLY think you're a self defense expert... or if you're LARPing and ACTUALLY think that elves, fairies, and other fae folk live among us in secret... you're deluding yourself, and that's bad. If you've managed to convince other people that you can teach them these things based on imaginary expertise, you are now doing harm to others, and that's a problem. And to be clear, I've encountered each of those three, along with a guy who thought that the Federation of Planets (the Star Trek fan club) would eventually evolve into the governing body of the future.

Exactly. That's part of the TMA delusion that I often talk about. Another part of the delusion is the belief that if its rare, or hard to find, or old, or traditional it's somehow better. Such as the belief that we haven't developed new methods on how to strangle, lock up, or snap someone's limbs. If you just look at Bjj they come up with new submissions all the time.

 

[Hanzou]

I think you can do the same thing with a photo from a hatsumi seminar.

Anytime Hatsumi's name comes up, I have to post this clip. The only thing more hilarious than what he does is the excuses people make for why it looks so terrible;

 

[dunc]

Exactly. That's part of the TMA delusion that I often talk about. Another part of the delusion is the belief that if its rare, or hard to find, or old, or traditional it's somehow better. Such as the belief that we haven't developed new methods on how to strangle, lock up, or snap someone's limbs. If you just look at Bjj they come up with new submissions all the time.

There are a lot of very useful techniques in the old Japanese styles that are not found in modern systems
Mostly these are on the self defence side of things, and the a lot of the differences stem from a) the fact that they always assume the opponent is armed, b) the freedom to operate without rules or gloves, &/or c) the combination of clothing and the previous points
There are some (not a huge number) techniques and details from the old styles that are not in BJJ, but I’ve found very useful additions to my game
And there is a fair amount of cross over particularly in the judo-like take downs

 

[drop bear]

There are a lot of very useful techniques in the old Japanese styles that are not found in modern systems
Mostly these are on the self defence side of things, and the a lot of the differences stem from a) the fact that they always assume the opponent is armed, b) the freedom to operate without rules or gloves, &/or c) the combination of clothing and the previous points
There are some (not a huge number) techniques and details from the old styles that are not in BJJ, but I’ve found very useful additions to my game
And there is a fair amount of cross over particularly in the judo-like take downs

Do you have an example?

Here is one from BJJ.

And you may notice the hips are in a weird spot. But if you get blocked it is then easier to face them again rather than have your back taken and suplexed or something. So this would be a more self defence version of the hip throw.

 

[Hanzou]

There are a lot of very useful techniques in the old Japanese styles that are not found in modern systems
Mostly these are on the self defence side of things, and the a lot of the differences stem from a) the fact that they always assume the opponent is armed, b) the freedom to operate without rules or gloves, &/or c) the combination of clothing and the previous points
There are some (not a huge number) techniques and details from the old styles that are not in BJJ, but I’ve found very useful additions to my game
And there is a fair amount of cross over particularly in the judo-like take downs

A lot of that simply sounds like mindset though. The “rules” exist in Bjj to allow practice at full force, giving the practitioner the feeling of weight, pressure, and violence. In some cases, strikes are incorporated so that a person learn to deal with someone punching them in the face while in guard or something similar.

However, I don’t think someone using Bjj in a self defense situation is mentally trapped in a “rules” mindset. They may show some level of restraint, but I’ve seen Bjj practitioners purposely snap limbs, or hold chokes far longer than necessary (and then start stomping the person after they passed out). They can get to that point because when they train, they’re 3/4 of the way there, only stopping because their partner taps.

My point is, I don’t think operating under a “rules” mindset is a factor one way or another. I would even argue that operating without one can be a hinderance, because you never get to fully train that dangerous technique, thus you’re never able to use it when you need it.

I mean in all seriousness, if we had a Bjj black belt go up against a JJJ black belt (unarmed) is there any doubt that the Bjj black belt would maul the JJJ practitioner, and be far more capable of killing them?

In terms of techniques, I definitely know there’s WAY more techniques in JJJ than Bjj. I’m just wondering how much fat you have to trim through to get to the useful stuff.

 

[dunc]

A lot of that simply sounds like mindset though. The “rules” exist in Bjj to allow practice at full force, giving the practitioner the feeling of weight, pressure, and violence. In some cases, strikes are incorporated so that a person learn to deal with someone punching them in the face while in guard or something similar.

However, I don’t think someone using Bjj in a self defense situation is mentally trapped in a “rules” mindset. They may show some level of restraint, but I’ve seen Bjj practitioners purposely snap limbs, or hold chokes far longer than necessary (and then start stomping the person after they passed out). They can get to that point because when they train, they’re 3/4 of the way there, only stopping because their partner taps.

My point is, I don’t think operating under a “rules” mindset is a factor one way or another. I would even argue that operating without one can be a hinderance, because you never get to fully train that dangerous technique, thus you’re never able to use it when you need it.

I mean in all seriousness, if we had a Bjj black belt go up against a JJJ black belt (unarmed) is there any doubt that the Bjj black belt would maul the JJJ practitioner, and be far more capable of killing them?

In terms of techniques, I definitely know there’s WAY more techniques in JJJ than Bjj. I’m just wondering how much fat you have to trim through to get to the useful stuff.

I'm a total fan of the benefits of training full force and therefore accepting the rules that necessarily need to be introduced
And if you have to be binary about it then probably the identical twin who trains full force under a rule set will tool their sibling who trains without rules or resistance in a contest

But I don't think you have to be binary about this and there are a lot of important technical differences between the two that would benefit both sides

The techniques for "no-rules self defence" are present in JJJ and there is a very rich, deep curriculum here (yes you need to filter out some of the wheat from the chaff). It's also perfectly possible to train and develop the necessary skills to apply these under pressure, basically through specific sparring, setting things up, but not completing the move etc
I wish more people who had the deep technical understanding from JJJ did this and I for one am doing more and more of it over time as I figure out & incorporate exercises that work well

I feel the no-rules thing has become a bit of a crutch for people in TMA who don't want to fail and learn

 

[dunc]

Do you have an example?

Here is one from BJJ.

And you may notice the hips are in a weird spot. But if you get blocked it is then easier to face them again rather than have your back taken and suplexed or something. So this would be a more self defence version of the hip throw.

Example of which?
Thanks

 

[Hanzou]

I'm a total fan of the benefits of training full force and therefore accepting the rules that necessarily need to be introduced
And if you have to be binary about it then probably the identical twin who trains full force under a rule set will tool their sibling who trains without rules or resistance in a contest

But I don't think you have to be binary about this and there are a lot of important technical differences between the two that would benefit both sides

The techniques for "no-rules self defence" are present in JJJ and there is a very rich, deep curriculum here (yes you need to filter out some of the wheat from the chaff). It's also perfectly possible to train and develop the necessary skills to apply these under pressure, basically through specific sparring, setting things up, but not completing the move etc
I wish more people who had the deep technical understanding from JJJ did this and I for one am doing more and more of it over time as I figure out & incorporate exercises that work well

I feel the no-rules thing has become a bit of a crutch for people in TMA who don't want to fail and learn

I absolutely believe that some techniques from classical JJ can benefit Bjj. Wrist locks immediately come to mind, since it adds an extra layer of complexity to grappling, and is legal in many Bjj competitions, so it can be practiced fully in a sparring context. I just find the "no-rules" self defense stuff to be highly suspect. For example, that video of Hatsumi I posted where he's doing stuff like pulling hair and kicking the groin is certainly "no-rules", but the fundamentals are completely off. In fact, they're so off that the kicking the groin and chops to the throat are pointless because you will never get a resisting opponent in a position to do those techniques in the first place. Unfortunately, I'm of the mindset that a lot of classical JJs are in a similar boat, because there's no testing ground for those techniques. When you're not capable of putting those techniques through a filter, they begin to wither and die under the weight of their disuse. Yes, the "no-rules" thing is definitely a crutch, and in some cases it's also a noose.

BTW, this is why I wanted to see some form of Classical JJ randori or sparring. Typically that is where you can see a martial art in action with no inhibitors in place. The fact that examples of this are very hard to find within classical JJ, but examples of kata and demonstrations are very abundant is troubling. I get it though; Fighting is ugly, fighting is barbaric, fighting is unrefined, and fighting is chaotic. It is a stark contrast to the orderly beauty I see in a lot of those classical JJ demonstrations, which leads me to believe that the randori I'm seeking out of classical JJs simply doesn't exist.

This is fine by the way. There is nothing wrong with indulging in another culture, and learning the ways of an ancient Asian warrior class. However, the problems begin to emerge when you start believing that that kata you're performing in samurai garb is the same as the Judoka slamming his partner under full resistance. It's not the same, and you're not developing the same level of martial experience as that Judoka is. See Hatsumi in the video above, then compare it to a typical Bjj black belt for further evidence of this.

 

[Hanzou]

Oh, and this is part of the problem as well;

East vs. West: You Can’t Always Believe the Stories – Martial Arts World Report

As a huge fan of Fearless, I was quite disappointed to hear that quite of bit of that story was pure fiction.

 

[Cynik75]

...BTW, this is why I wanted to see some form of Classical JJ randori or sparring...

Here you have a video from Jujitsu Championship of Poland 2018. The action starts 1:22.

Polish National Jujitsu Team works very close with the best polish BJJ black belts (and some BJJist are members and coaches of this team, especially for newaza). They work very close with polish ALMMA (Amateur League of MMA) too.
This id oldest video (from 2006) but it shows very well traditional jujitsu in full contact action:

 

[Hanzou]

Here you have a video from Jujitsu Championship of Poland 2018. The action starts 1:22.

Polish National Jujitsu Team works very close with the best polish BJJ black belts (and some BJJist are members and coaches of this team, especially for newaza). They work very close with polish ALMMA (Amateur League of MMA) too.
This id oldest video (from 2006) but it shows very well traditional jujitsu in full contact action:

Oh yeah, I'm aware of these folks. I'm talking more along the lines of the classical Jiujitsu folks with the katanas and the hakamas. The "Koryu" styles of JJJ.

 

[lklawson]

Well, just to be clear, I think folks need to follow their passions. I have always been a misfit and a nerd, and have a genuine soft spot for misfits and nerds. I roast coffee, make soap, am learning to make pottery, play tabletop RPGs with my friends and can tick off most of the "nerd" stereotypes. And my wife has the rest covered (she was a "mathlete" for Pete's sake). Point is, if you want to train in traditional Japanese martial arts, knock yourself out. If you want to train in a fake or ineffective brand of martial arts because it's cool looking, go for it. If you want to pretend you're a ninja or actually participate in LARP, have a blast. I won't judge you if you don't judge me.

But if you're doing something like the above and think you're ACTUALLY learning to fight... or if you're training as a ninja in the land down under, and ACTUALLY think you're a self defense expert... or if you're LARPing and ACTUALLY think that elves, fairies, and other fae folk live among us in secret... you're deluding yourself, and that's bad. If you've managed to convince other people that you can teach them these things based on imaginary expertise, you are now doing harm to others, and that's a problem. And to be clear, I've encountered each of those three, along with a guy who thought that the Federation of Planets (the Star Trek fan club) would eventually evolve into the governing body of the future.

There's a lot of people who throw the term "LARP" around as an insult at things that aren't. I've known folks who did actual real LARP. But most of the time it seems to be misapplied to people learning to actually fight, but in a context that most aren't likely to see today. Many of my friends who do HEMA are actually learning to fight with Longswords &tc. But none of them have convinced themselves that they're ever going to have an actual Medieval style armored life-and-death combat. But they have learned how to fight in that context. Why? Who cares.

And what is even more unexpected for people who throw the "LARP" insult around, is that there is quite often an intersection between actual LARPing and honestly learning how to fight in an ancient context. For example, I have friends in the SCA. They certainly dress in period cloths and try to "live" in period ways from time to time. But a lot of good research on period fighting methods have come out of those folks. Because it's a facet of the whole that they're interested in.

Another example would be SASS (Single Action Shooting Society), aka "Cowboy Action Shooting." They dress in "cowboy" period cloths, take "cowboy" style names, only use guns designed prior to about 1898 ims. Yet they know how to shoot better than most average folks I've seen, including a lot of "gun in the sock drawer" gun owners, are accurate and fast, and could, if needed drill a bad guy with alacrity using revolver, shotgun, or rifle. And, yes, I've seen them run SA revolvers as fast as a lot of average joes can run a semi without that goofy "fanning" that people seem to think. Not kidding.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Chris presents himself as a self defense expert and you guys indulge him as an expert.

Does he? I mean, he might, but I don't recall seeing him make the assertion. I know he's asserted expertise in certain Asian based martial arts which he's studied. Has he actually said he's a "self defense expert?"

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Sorry to quibble; in response to Hanzou stating that "the fighting application of these classical JJ arts is close to nil"

I asked "what experience fighting with weapons does he have to make such an assessment.

My point being that these arts derive from a time when there was a population engaging in combat with (and against) weapons regularly - this allows for an accumulation of information and technical know-how which cannot be replicated without such practical experience.

In other words, there are skills, techniques and knowledge which cannot be learned or understood simply by 'rolling' with someone in a bjj class. But it doesn't seem that the OP has any interest in any of that.

We still do that. I regularly and continually train with LEO, C.O., and combat vets. Melee weapons are still common. One Marine I train with from time to time had to fight against a Machete (aka "short sword") when it was in South America. And the the non-firearms weapons experiences runs the whole list of sticks, clubs, knives, and "swords."

You know what martial arts these guys study? All of them. I work with guys who study Danzan Ryu, Judo, "Classical" Ju Jutsu, BJJ, "Combatives," antique western styles (Bowie Knife, Pugilism, Applegate/Fairbairn/Sykes/Styers/Biddle) &tc. They have the actual, still happening, experience. That Marine I mentioned above? He studies Judo and U.S. Civil War era arts, including Musketry. So when I see bozos like hanzou and drop bear claiming that these old things aren't applicable to modern self defense, don't work, are silly, LARPing, or any other stupid and uninformed things they like to say, then I know they're willfully fracking ignorant. Sometimes I try to set them straight but usually they are too stubborn, conceited, and arrogant to pay any attention, preferring to swim in the mire of their own B.S. echo chamber.

I usually end up getting tired, throw up my hands, and leave them to their conceited ignorance.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Well, if you read enough history of BJJ this attitude was very common among Brazilians during its time. The BJJ schools (and Lutre Liva) liked to go out and fight and thus the stereotype. I don't think its like boxing in America because there isn't an attitude that these boxers are going out and getting into fights with each other or picking fights.

To be fair, Harrison, in his 1912 book, The Fighting Spirit of Japan, claims that while he was studying Judo there, the Judoka would do exactly that. On the weekends they'd go out and pick fights.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Yes. And my point initially was... the people who created and perpetuated the arts we are discussing did have that experience. So maybe there might be something there of value.

My point in clarifying was that 'having a knife pulled on me' doesn't fall into the same category of experience, and is tangential to the original point.

It's actually pretty common for people who are still studying these arts to continue to get said experience. I train with them and talk to them all the time.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[dunc]

Oh yeah, I'm aware of these folks. I'm talking more along the lines of the classical Jiujitsu folks with the katanas and the hakamas. The "Koryu" styles of JJJ.

Yes I agree
This isn't Japanese JJ, it's more a blend of different styles (looks like karate and BJJ to me)

 

[Hanzou]

There's a lot of people who throw the term "LARP" around as an insult at things that aren't. I've known folks who did actual real LARP. But most of the time it seems to be misapplied to people learning to actually fight, but in a context that most aren't likely to see today. Many of my friends who do HEMA are actually learning to fight with Longswords &tc. But none of them have convinced themselves that they're ever going to have an actual Medieval style armored life-and-death combat. But they have learned how to fight in that context. Why? Who cares.

And what is even more unexpected for people who throw the "LARP" insult around, is that there is quite often an intersection between actual LARPing and honestly learning how to fight in an ancient context. For example, I have friends in the SCA. They certainly dress in period cloths and try to "live" in period ways from time to time. But a lot of good research on period fighting methods have come out of those folks. Because it's a facet of the whole that they're interested in.

Another example would be SASS (Single Action Shooting Society), aka "Cowboy Action Shooting." They dress in "cowboy" period cloths, take "cowboy" style names, only use guns designed prior to about 1898 ims. Yet they know how to shoot better than most average folks I've seen, including a lot of "gun in the sock drawer" gun owners, are accurate and fast, and could, if needed drill a bad guy with alacrity using revolver, shotgun, or rifle. And, yes, I've seen them run SA revolvers as fast as a lot of average joes can run a semi without that goofy "fanning" that people seem to think. Not kidding.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Aren't those exceptions that don't prove the rule?

For example, if I'm looking to purchase a gun for my (and my family's) protection, would I purchase a revolver from the Civil War, or would I purchase a modern hand gun? Obviously, if I collect guns, and I have a hobby of shooting old fashioned guns, I might be interested in a Civil War firearm, however for practical purposes, I'd be using and carrying the modern hand gun.

The same applies when we talk about Modern versus Classical Jujitsu. Sure, there's value in studying those ancient arts, but if a woman is asking me what martial art can best protect her from getting attacked, I'd tell her to learn Bjj and take a self defense class. I would never tell her to join a Tenjin Shino Ryu or similar school.