Why Wouldn't A Good Athlete Be Good In The Martial Arts

[HighKick]

What specifically are you disagreeing with?

That water reduces the need for a stable base. It makes it harder to stay stable because it will 'push' on you more compared to standing on the ground surrounded by air.

 

[windwalker099]

Again, if you want to see a dance of balance watch a bunch of people trying to wade in marginally rough surf. You'll see people who can't avoid being knocked over onto their butts to very stable, balanced people who seem like they are Godzilla entering Tokyo Bay, and they often got that balance by doing that a lot.

Not understanding the comparisons.

The "dance of balance" in water differs from balance on land. Water reduces weight-bearing, alters proprioception, and forces reactive adjustments to external forces rather than improving self-generated stability..

The best ways to train balance focus on engaging the body's natural ability to respond to gravity, weight shifts, and ground contact. Water supports the body, reducing the need for muscles to stabilize against gravity.

 

[HighKick]

Not understanding the comparisons.

The "dance of balance" in water differs from balance on land. Water reduces weight-bearing, alters proprioception, and forces reactive adjustments to external forces rather than improving self-generated stability..

The best ways to train balance focus on engaging the body's natural ability to respond to gravity, weight shifts, and ground contact. Water supports the body, reducing the need for muscles to stabilize against gravity.

It may reduce your body's need for muscles to stabilize in a given direction, but at the same time it may be pulling you in All other directions. This also causes an 'over-reaction of muscle control. If you understand PID loops, this is the classic overshoot.

 

[windwalker099]

If you understand PID loops, this is the classic overshoot.

I do

Water dampens the effects of balance errors:

Proportional control is weakened → Reduced immediate feedback from weight shifts.
Integral control is disrupted → The brain does not accumulate land-based balance corrections properly.
Derivative control is altered → The slowing effect of water changes the rate of error detection, leading to incorrect anticipatory responses on land.

If you understand 重心 (zhòngxīn, center of gravity)
How to develop and use it...
It might help in understanding why water training would not be useful in training or
developing it.

Do what works best for your practice, if water is your thing,
go for it...


Not really useful in my own work.

 

[Badhabits]

That water reduces the need for a stable base. It makes it harder to stay stable because it will 'push' on you more compared to standing on the ground surrounded by air.

I agree. When I agreed with windwalker that water reduces the need for a stable base I was thinking of deep enough water where if you lose footing you can just float upright rather than fall over like on land.

 

[HighKick]

I agree. When I agreed with windwalker that water reduces the need for a stable base I was thinking of deep enough water where if you lose footing you can just float upright rather than fall over like on land.

Not exactly sure what you mean by 'float upright' but Maybe you could more easily keep your head above the surface in salt water? But trying to kick, punch, block while floating in the Ocean for an extended period would be brutal. It would pull you all over while not having enough friction from gravity to have any kind of base.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Not understanding the comparisons.

The "dance of balance" in water differs from balance on land. Water reduces weight-bearing, alters proprioception, and forces reactive adjustments to external forces rather than improving self-generated stability..

The best ways to train balance focus on engaging the body's natural ability to respond to gravity, weight shifts, and ground contact. Water supports the body, reducing the need for muscles to stabilize against gravity.

"Best ways"? According to whom, Tai Chi immortals?

You don't understand how hard it is to maintain balance in rough surf?

To understand I recommend you go back and read the articles and studies I posted. It contradicted a lot of what you've been posting, especially the parts about it making you "slower" etc.

Water doesn't support the body or stabilize anything when it's moving. It's a resistant medium even when it's static.

Water isn't jello.

Again, this is well known, mainstream rehab medical science.

 

[Sammy Naur]

I do

Water dampens the effects of balance errors:

Proportional control is weakened → Reduced immediate feedback from weight shifts.
Integral control is disrupted → The brain does not accumulate land-based balance corrections properly.
Derivative control is altered → The slowing effect of water changes the rate of error detection, leading to incorrect anticip

If you understand 重心 (zhòngxīn, center of gravity)
How to develop and use it...
It might help in understanding why water training would not be useful in training or
developing it.

This is pseudoscience wrapped in jargon.

Water training is not useful for training center of gravity? Try telling that to any rescue diver or naval pilot.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Not exactly sure what you mean by 'float upright' but Maybe you could more easily keep your head above the surface in salt water? But trying to kick, punch, block while floating in the Ocean for an extended period would be brutal. It would pull you all over while not having enough friction from gravity to have any kind of base.

I feel like we are being sucked into yet another situation where someone claiming ancient kung fu knowledge is having a hard time sticking to basic physics.

More balance and strength come from swinging at air and standing on one leg. The same guys who get leveled by basic single and double leg takedowns because they don't train with actual resistance (the kind water is well known for providing.

Watch any competitive swimming, surfing, hell even water polo. All these people have better balance.

 

[HighKick]

I feel like we are being sucked into yet another situation where someone claiming ancient kung fu knowledge is having a hard time sticking to basic physics.

More balance and strength come from swinging at air and standing on one leg. The same guys who get leveled by basic single and double leg takedowns because they don't train with actual resistance (the kind water is well known for providing.

Watch any competitive swimming, surfing, hell even water polo. All these people have better balance.

Not claiming any "ancient kung fu knowledge", just applying common sense and extensive physics background, not to mention a long martial arts career.

Now, to this comment: "More balance and strength come from swinging at air and standing on one leg." What the heck are you talking about??? I agree with your follow-up regarding water resistance, but what does that have to do with the first statement?

Naturally, everything being equal, anyone who exercises in the water frequently will have 'better' balance in the water. Just like a seasoned kicker/puncher will be more adept than someone just starting out.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Now, to this comment: "More balance and strength come from swinging at air and standing on one leg." What the heck are you talking about??? I agree with your follow-up regarding water resistance, but what does that have to do with the first statement?

That first statement was supposed to be sarcastic. Like a mocking tone. I was lambasting concept that the best way to train against gravity is the typical Tai Chi movement, sans weight, water, or opponent.

It's funny because it took me only a couple hours to find this. Apparently Tai Chi has a 30+ year overlapping history with Japanese water therapy. But I'll go one further and claim this is probably thousands of years old. Or older.

Bringing me back to the original topic. I think most athletic people would absolutely smoke most "martial artists" who don't maintain athletic shape, inany situation. We are taking about one of the longest running "all talk, no walk" games on the planet.

"I train hard". Ok, run to the corner and back and then fight.

Ai Chi - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Aquatic therapy - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Badhabits]

Not exactly sure what you mean by 'float upright' but Maybe you could more easily keep your head above the surface in salt water? But trying to kick, punch, block while floating in the Ocean for an extended period would be brutal. It would pull you all over while not having enough friction from gravity to have any kind of base.

Just that in chest high or deeper water if your feet don't have purchase you can just tread water/float to stay upright without fighting gravity

 

[HighKick]

Just that in chest high or deeper water if your feet don't have purchase you can just tread water/float to stay upright without fighting gravity

Again, a little easier in salt water but treading water is it's own form of exercise. I am an avid diver and have done my share.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Interesting topic and logically if you're an athlete in a sport where the training makes you stronger, have more endurance, promotes agility and has proper training methods, why wouldn't you be a better martial artist ?

Athletes come in all shapes and sizes and not everyone is training to be in the Olympics. The older we get the more we focus on the health benefits of athletics and training. I have a friend whose mantra is "well at least we are off the couch". That works for her. I may be more serious in my training but that works for me. Getting back to the question, why wouldn't a good athlete be good in martial art ? Maybe it's the martial art that is focusing on something other than athleticism. Nothing wrong with that but perhaps its more art than martial.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Cheng Man-Ching (CMC) famously said that practicing Taiji should feel like "swimming on land," emphasizing relaxation, fluidity, and the natural flow of movement.

Mentioned it because some compared training in water—i.e., "swimming"—as analogous to the "swimming on land" idea he described.

CMC’s concept of "swimming on land" isn’t about resistance training in water but about moving with effortless flow, balance, and sensitivity.

The rationale for each is different.

Well from what I know about Taiji it is generally not done at full speed so doing Taiji in the water might be different, but if you want to develop explosive speed and you're throwing the kind of techniques that you would do at full speed you don't want to do them in the water because that will slow you down, so doing Taiji in the water might not be a problem but if you're training in an art that emphasizes maximum speed doing it in the water can be detrimental.

 

[windwalker099]

Well from what I know about Taiji it is generally not done at full speed so doing Taiji in the water might be different,

Taiji is practiced slowly not because it is meant to be applied slowly, but because the slower pace allows for the internal aspects to be cultivated — Yi (intent), Qi (energy), and Shen (awareness). These elements require time, stillness, and careful attention to develop. Introducing speed too early can bypass this internal process, resulting in movement that appears correct externally but lacks true substance.

Practicing in water or otherwise altering the training environment may interfere with the form’s intended purpose: refining structure, alignment, and internal connection. Once those qualities are firmly established, speed is not an issue it's natural and adaptive — but it must emerge from what has been trained, not serve as a substitute for it.

 

[PhotonGuy]

There is no truth to that, especially with boxing or any real striking combat art.

Resistance training doesn't make you slower. This is the "weight training makes you slower" myth again.

Weight training does not make you slower because you're not practicing actual techniques when you lift weights. When you do weightlifting exercises such as squats and bench presses you're not throwing any punches or kicks while you're doing it.

Combat striking trains with resistance all the time in dozens of ways. It makes you stronger and faster.

There are a lot of reasons ankle weights aren't recommended (quad/hamstring imbalances), slowing you down is not one of them.

According to a study done at Princeton University, if you practice front kicks while wearing ankle weights your front kicks will be slower because of the added weight. As such you will get used to kicking slower. If you want to be able to kick fast you should practice kicking fast, which means you don't want to do anything that would make your kicks slower such as using ankle weights or practicing in the water, which is why I stopped practicing in the water.

No, if anything swimming improves your muscle endurance and conditioning in ways far superior to doing similar motions in the air.

Sure it does and I never claimed otherwise, I just claimed that practicing techniques in the water can make you slower not faster at those techniques for the reasons explained above.

 

[PhotonGuy]

A good athlete can usually adapt to another sport or physical activity with relative ease, but only if there is a true desire to do.

That might be true to some extent but not always. What you need to be good in one sport can be the opposite of what you need to be good in at another sport.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Well from what I know about Taiji it is generally not done at full speed so doing Taiji in the water might be different, but if you want to develop explosive speed and you're throwing the kind of techniques that you would do at full speed you don't want to do them in the water because that will slow you down, so doing Taiji in the water might not be a problem but if you're training in an art that emphasizes maximum speed doing it in the water can be detrimental.

Then explain competitive swimming.

This is the party about the "training in water makes you slower" claim that doesn't jive with basic physics.

The idea that in martial arts that you're not going to meet resistance is suspect. The reality is that water just happens to provide much better resistance than air. Practicing in water makes you stronger, and hits 100% of muscle groups.

If water is "detrimental" to maximum speed, then all resistance training should be bad, but that contradicts reality across all physical exercises, including sports and martial arts.

Havent you ever wrestled in the water, or even sand? It makes things harder, and if makes it harder, it stands that if you do it a lot, wrestling standard becomes easier. Which is why coaches often use water training in martial arts, but also football, rugby, lacrosse...

 

[Sammy Naur]

Weight training does not make you slower because you're not practicing actual techniques when you lift weights. When you do weightlifting exercises such as squats and bench presses you're not throwing any punches or kicks while you're doing it

That's a very narrow definition of "technique". Fireman carries with a heavy bag, Indian club swings, and yes even weighted squats (which is a critical Judo training skill).

Moving through water is just moving through a denser medium. Will you do things slower yes, but you'll speed up. And it doesn't reason at all that, upon popping out of the water, you're suddenly slower.

I don't see why Tai Chi would be special or different.

According to a study done at Princeton

Post the study please, after COVID I skip past claims like this without a source. The studies I have seen on weighted ankles were all focused on joint issues.

Same thing goes for Flat Earth. "Some guys launched a rocket on TikTok". Etc.

Don't take it personally.