Why Wouldn't A Good Athlete Be Good In The Martial Arts

Again, if you want to see a dance of balance watch a bunch of people trying to wade in marginally rough surf. You'll see people who can't avoid being knocked over onto their butts to very stable, balanced people who seem like they are Godzilla entering Tokyo Bay, and they often got that balance by doing that a lot.

Not understanding the comparisons.

The "dance of balance" in water differs from balance on land. Water reduces weight-bearing, alters proprioception, and forces reactive adjustments to external forces rather than improving self-generated stability..

The best ways to train balance focus on engaging the body's natural ability to respond to gravity, weight shifts, and ground contact. Water supports the body, reducing the need for muscles to stabilize against gravity.
 
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Not understanding the comparisons.

The "dance of balance" in water differs from balance on land. Water reduces weight-bearing, alters proprioception, and forces reactive adjustments to external forces rather than improving self-generated stability..

The best ways to train balance focus on engaging the body's natural ability to respond to gravity, weight shifts, and ground contact. Water supports the body, reducing the need for muscles to stabilize against gravity.
It may reduce your body's need for muscles to stabilize in a given direction, but at the same time it may be pulling you in All other directions. This also causes an 'over-reaction of muscle control. If you understand PID loops, this is the classic overshoot.
 
If you understand PID loops, this is the classic overshoot.

I do

Water dampens the effects of balance errors:

Proportional control is weakened → Reduced immediate feedback from weight shifts.
Integral control is disrupted → The brain does not accumulate land-based balance corrections properly.
Derivative control is altered → The slowing effect of water changes the rate of error detection, leading to incorrect anticipatory responses on land.

If you understand 重心 (zhòngxīn, center of gravity)
How to develop and use it...
It might help in understanding why water training would not be useful in training or
developing it.

Do what works best for your practice, if water is your thing,
go for it...👍


Not really useful in my own work.
 
That water reduces the need for a stable base. It makes it harder to stay stable because it will 'push' on you more compared to standing on the ground surrounded by air.
I agree. When I agreed with windwalker that water reduces the need for a stable base I was thinking of deep enough water where if you lose footing you can just float upright rather than fall over like on land.
 
I agree. When I agreed with windwalker that water reduces the need for a stable base I was thinking of deep enough water where if you lose footing you can just float upright rather than fall over like on land.
Not exactly sure what you mean by 'float upright' but Maybe you could more easily keep your head above the surface in salt water? But trying to kick, punch, block while floating in the Ocean for an extended period would be brutal. It would pull you all over while not having enough friction from gravity to have any kind of base.
 
Not understanding the comparisons.

The "dance of balance" in water differs from balance on land. Water reduces weight-bearing, alters proprioception, and forces reactive adjustments to external forces rather than improving self-generated stability..

The best ways to train balance focus on engaging the body's natural ability to respond to gravity, weight shifts, and ground contact. Water supports the body, reducing the need for muscles to stabilize against gravity.
"Best ways"? According to whom, Tai Chi immortals?

You don't understand how hard it is to maintain balance in rough surf?

To understand I recommend you go back and read the articles and studies I posted. It contradicted a lot of what you've been posting, especially the parts about it making you "slower" etc.

Water doesn't support the body or stabilize anything when it's moving. It's a resistant medium even when it's static.

Water isn't jello.

Again, this is well known, mainstream rehab medical science.
 
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I do

Water dampens the effects of balance errors:

Proportional control is weakened → Reduced immediate feedback from weight shifts.
Integral control is disrupted → The brain does not accumulate land-based balance corrections properly.
Derivative control is altered → The slowing effect of water changes the rate of error detection, leading to incorrect anticip

If you understand 重心 (zhòngxīn, center of gravity)
How to develop and use it...
It might help in understanding why water training would not be useful in training or
developing it.
This is pseudoscience wrapped in jargon.

Water training is not useful for training center of gravity? Try telling that to any rescue diver or naval pilot.
 
Not exactly sure what you mean by 'float upright' but Maybe you could more easily keep your head above the surface in salt water? But trying to kick, punch, block while floating in the Ocean for an extended period would be brutal. It would pull you all over while not having enough friction from gravity to have any kind of base.
I feel like we are being sucked into yet another situation where someone claiming ancient kung fu knowledge is having a hard time sticking to basic physics.

More balance and strength come from swinging at air and standing on one leg. The same guys who get leveled by basic single and double leg takedowns because they don't train with actual resistance (the kind water is well known for providing.

Watch any competitive swimming, surfing, hell even water polo. All these people have better balance.
 
I feel like we are being sucked into yet another situation where someone claiming ancient kung fu knowledge is having a hard time sticking to basic physics.

More balance and strength come from swinging at air and standing on one leg. The same guys who get leveled by basic single and double leg takedowns because they don't train with actual resistance (the kind water is well known for providing.

Watch any competitive swimming, surfing, hell even water polo. All these people have better balance.
Not claiming any "ancient kung fu knowledge", just applying common sense and extensive physics background, not to mention a long martial arts career.

Now, to this comment: "More balance and strength come from swinging at air and standing on one leg." What the heck are you talking about??? I agree with your follow-up regarding water resistance, but what does that have to do with the first statement?

Naturally, everything being equal, anyone who exercises in the water frequently will have 'better' balance in the water. Just like a seasoned kicker/puncher will be more adept than someone just starting out.
 
Now, to this comment: "More balance and strength come from swinging at air and standing on one leg." What the heck are you talking about??? I agree with your follow-up regarding water resistance, but what does that have to do with the first statement?
That first statement was supposed to be sarcastic. Like a mocking tone. I was lambasting concept that the best way to train against gravity is the typical Tai Chi movement, sans weight, water, or opponent.

It's funny because it took me only a couple hours to find this. Apparently Tai Chi has a 30+ year overlapping history with Japanese water therapy. But I'll go one further and claim this is probably thousands of years old. Or older.

Bringing me back to the original topic. I think most athletic people would absolutely smoke most "martial artists" who don't maintain athletic shape, inany situation. We are taking about one of the longest running "all talk, no walk" games on the planet.

"I train hard". Ok, run to the corner and back and then fight.


 
Not exactly sure what you mean by 'float upright' but Maybe you could more easily keep your head above the surface in salt water? But trying to kick, punch, block while floating in the Ocean for an extended period would be brutal. It would pull you all over while not having enough friction from gravity to have any kind of base.
Just that in chest high or deeper water if your feet don't have purchase you can just tread water/float to stay upright without fighting gravity
 
Just that in chest high or deeper water if your feet don't have purchase you can just tread water/float to stay upright without fighting gravity
Again, a little easier in salt water but treading water is it's own form of exercise. I am an avid diver and have done my share.
 
Interesting topic and logically if you're an athlete in a sport where the training makes you stronger, have more endurance, promotes agility and has proper training methods, why wouldn't you be a better martial artist ?

Athletes come in all shapes and sizes and not everyone is training to be in the Olympics. The older we get the more we focus on the health benefits of athletics and training. I have a friend whose mantra is "well at least we are off the couch". That works for her. I may be more serious in my training but that works for me. Getting back to the question, why wouldn't a good athlete be good in martial art ? Maybe it's the martial art that is focusing on something other than athleticism. Nothing wrong with that but perhaps its more art than martial.
 
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