Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective for Self-Defense

[K-man]

The whole idea is not to blindly follow karate and let it restrain you. There are many things in karate I felt weren't effective for me like rotating a punch when I can deliver a much harder strike with a vertical fist. I can't assert that the vertical fist is more powerful, it just works better for me. This is why I needed to go shopping for new tools.

Interesting you should bring this point up. I teach tate tsuki (vertical fist) in a 'traditional' school because I can produce greater power in the punch and the bone structure of the arm is in a stronger alignment than with the rotated fist (seiken). My understanding of the rotated fist is that it was originally used with the second knuckle extended (nakadaka ippon ken) to provide a tearing effect on underlying tissues. Another bonus is that tate tsuki can be delivered with full force with a broken thumb or index finger. :asian:

 

[Tez3]

Interesting you should bring this point up. I teach tate tsuki (vertical fist) in a 'traditional' school because I can produce greater power in the punch and the bone structure of the arm is in a stronger alignment than with the rotated fist (seiken). My understanding of the rotated fist is that it was originally used with the second knuckle extended (nakadaka ippon ken) to provide a tearing effect on underlying tissues. Another bonus is that tate tsuki can be delivered with full force with a broken thumb or index finger. :asian:

We do both, always good to have a choice of the right weapon for the job. On the rotated fist we always use knuckles as you've described.

 

[rdonovan1]

I believe that Karate and many of the Chinese martial arts are good for internal development and overall health, but I don't believe that they should be relied upon only.

I agree with the article in the terms that it is really ineffective in a real fight and that you are better off studying things like ninjutsu, military and police tactics and techniques as they are much more realistic for the street than Karate itself.

Karate and the kata's along with the Chinese systems are in my opinion best kept and used for things like health, phsyical fitness, and overall stress relief and if done properly can help you to live longer.

I also think that it is also good for mental development and overall character development, but it on it's own should not be relied upon solely for that as one still needs to educate themselves and one should still seek out and join a religion that most closely fits their morals and values like the Baptist faith or something else of that nature.

Studying psychology and human behavior is also a good idea as well as that can and will help you to understand your opponent better and can even help you to more effectively deal with a verbal conflict in which there really should be no reason to use physical force.

That however does not mean that you should be stupid or naive at all as people can be very unpredicable and the best defense is a good offense.

 

[K-man]

I believe that Karate and many of the Chinese martial arts are good for internal development and overall health, but I don't believe that they should be relied upon only.

I agree with the article in the terms that it is really ineffective in a real fight and that you are better off studying things like ninjutsu, military and police tactics and techniques as they are much more realistic for the street than Karate itself.

Karate and the kata's along with the Chinese systems are in my opinion best kept and used for things like health, phsyical fitness, and overall stress relief and if done properly can help you to live longer.

I also think that it is also good for mental development and overall character development, but it on it's own should not be relied upon solely for that as one still needs to educate themselves and one should still seek out and join a religion that most closely fits their morals and values like the Baptist faith or something else of that nature.

Studying psychology and human behavior is also a good idea as well as that can and will help you to understand your opponent better and can even help you to more effectively deal with a verbal conflict in which there really should be no reason to use physical force.

That however does not mean that you should be stupid or naive at all as people can be very unpredicable and the best defense is a good offense.

I am sorry but I think we must be from a different planet.

I agree with the article in the terms that it is really ineffective in a real fight and that you are better off studying things like ninjutsu, military and police tactics and techniques as they are much more realistic for the street than Karate itself.

The article is at the very least self promotion for alternate training and to suggest that Ninjitsu is superior to tradititional karate is presumptive. What do you think we do at training? Strut up and down and yell Kiai while you learn the real stuff. Tonight for instance we had headgear on and were defending against full speed attacks with sticks. Interesting the best defences we were training were straight out of kata seinchin, but you probably don't have to learn kata because they are such a waste of time. I actually have a senior police officer in my class and he is amazed at the difference of the self defence that we teach compared with what the police are now taught, which unless the go outside the force is pretty much useless. Hence the debate over guns, tasers and capsicum spray. As for the military, they generally have those things that go bang. They try not to get too close but even their training for hand to hand combat is not to different to that that you would learn in a good 'traditional' karate school. Who do you think brought karate to the USA after the WWII? I doubt that the marines who fought their way through through Pacific campaign and Okinawa, with bloody hand to hand battles learnt karate 'for things like health, physical fitness, and overall stress relief and if done properly to help them to live longer.'

There may be debate over the validity of the article but I doubt you will get a great deal of support for your views of karate and the Chinese systems of the martial arts.

On the other hand, maybe I just didn't understand what you were saying. I think I'll just hang up the gi and go and take tea with a Baptist, if as you say that will be just as effective as my wasted years of karate training. :asian:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I agree with the article in the terms that it is really ineffective in a real fight and that you are better off studying things like ninjutsu, military and police tactics and techniques as they are much more realistic for the street than Karate itself.

Can you offer a technical reason to support this statement?

Daniel

 

[rdonovan1]

I am sorry but I think we must be from a different planet. The article is at the very least self promotion for alternate training and to suggest that Ninjitsu is superior to tradititional karate is presumptive. What do you think we do at training? Strut up and down and yell Kiai while you learn the real stuff. Tonight for instance we had headgear on and were defending against full speed attacks with sticks. Interesting the best defences we were training were straight out of kata seinchin, but you probably don't have to learn kata because they are such a waste of time. I actually have a senior police officer in my class and he is amazed at the difference of the self defence that we teach compared with what the police are now taught, which unless the go outside the force is pretty much useless. Hence the debate over guns, tasers and capsicum spray. As for the military, they generally have those things that go bang. They try not to get too close but even their training for hand to hand combat is not to different to that that you would learn in a good 'traditional' karate school. Who do you think brought karate to the USA after the WWII? I doubt that the marines who fought their way through through Pacific campaign and Okinawa, with bloody hand to hand battles learnt karate 'for things like health, physical fitness, and overall stress relief and if done properly to help them to live longer.'

There may be debate over the validity of the article but I doubt you will get a great deal of support for your views of karate and the Chinese systems of the martial arts.

On the other hand, maybe I just didn't understand what you were saying. I think I'll just hang up the gi and go and take tea with a Baptist, if as you say that will be just as effective as my wasted years of karate training. :asian:

I agree that we do probably have differing viewpoints on the subject.

My point is based upon reality and the real world and does not come from any dojo. Out on the street and in places like prisons and even foreign countries your enemy is not going to give a damn about what trophies you might have or as to how well your kata is.

As far as they are concerned you are the enemy and they will do whatever they can to outsmart and defeat you.

On the street in places like prisons for example your opponent is and will use any tactic and technique that they think will give them the upper hand and if that includes the use of things like guns, knives, explosives or anything else that they can get and use either legally or illegally then they can and will use them without remorse and that is why it is essential for people to be able to know how to properly combat it.

Imagine for example you are in a fight with several guys out on the street. For arguments sake we'll say that they're are four of them. Three of them are in direct contact with you. One is behind you and is holding you down and back while two of them are taking their turns on you or even helping to hold you down. The fourth guy is standing outside of your reach several feet away and is holding a gun or a very large knife.

His intention is to either just shoot you outright or to do something like give you a Mexican necktie by slitting your throat from ear to ear with a really large knife.

Let's also say for instance that you can outwrangle the three guys that are on you right now. What is to stop the fourth guy from stabbing or shooting you at anytime and how do you plan on dealing with him?

Things like ninjutsu, police, and military tactics are designed for that kind of thing and even worse whereas Karate just is not up to the task and the sad part is that many people tend to think that it is and more often than not they end up getting killed all because they underestimated their opponents and the situation and of course did not prepare and train properly for the unexepected.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

My point is based upon reality and the real world and does not come from any dojo. Out on the street and in places like prisons and even foreign countries your enemy is not going to give a damn about what trophies you might have or as to how well your kata is.

Things like ninjutsu, police, and military tactics are designed for that kind of thing and even worse whereas Karate just is not up to the task and the sad part is that many people tend to think that it is and more often than not they end up getting killed all because they underestimated their opponents and the situation and of course did not prepare and train properly for the unexepected.

Last I checked, ninjutsu is taught in dojos, so please stop bringing it up if a dojo instructed art is no good on "the street."

Police tactics are not always applicable to civilian self defense, as they focus on the arrest and detainment of suspects and include the use of firearms, tasers, night sticks, and the all important radio with which to call for backup.

Military training is likewise geared towards fighting with a rifle in a unit with backup, not towards engaging the enemy in hand to hand combat.

I see a lot of "out on the street" comments, and these all sound cool and look great in an advertisement, but do nothing to support your statements. What technical evidence can you offer to support your statements?

What is it about karate that is lacking in terms of the skill set?

Karate encompasses blocks and strikes along with some grapples. The body can only move and strike in but so many ways and grapples can only be applied in but so many ways. What is it about the specific skills used in karate that makes them ineffective?

Also, are you aware that there is a wide array of karate ryus that are often less similar to one another than they are to martial systems that fall outside of the karate subset, so it would also be helpful if you could specify which ryu or ryus you refer to.

Or are you referring to sport karate, as you make it a point to mention trophies.

Please do not answer with more lectures about "the street and in prison" as if none of us know what it is or what can take place there. "The street" has been discussed at great length here and on every other MA forum in existence.

A technical answer please.

Daniel

 

[Ojisan]

My point is based upon reality and the real world and does not come from any dojo. Out on the street and in places like prisons and even foreign countries your enemy is not going to give a damn about what trophies you might have or as to how well your kata is.

----Imagine for example you are in a fight with several guys out on the street. For arguments sake we'll say that they're are four of them. Three of them are in direct contact with you. One is behind you and is holding you down and back while two of them are taking their turns on you or even helping to hold you down. The fourth guy is standing outside of your reach several feet away and is holding a gun or a very large knife.

Er... what prisons and foreign countries have you been in in order to form your opinion of reality? Have you ever been in a fight as an adult? Have you ever confronted someone who is trying to physically harm you?

Your arguments for reality based defense sound more derived from internet games and movies.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Imagine for example you are in a fight with several guys out on the street. For arguments sake we'll say that they're are four of them. Three of them are in direct contact with you. One is behind you and is holding you down and back while two of them are taking their turns on you or even helping to hold you down. The fourth guy is standing outside of your reach several feet away and is holding a gun or a very large knife.

His intention is to either just shoot you outright or to do something like give you a Mexican necktie by slitting your throat from ear to ear with a really large knife.

Let's also say for instance that you can outwrangle the three guys that are on you right now. What is to stop the fourth guy from stabbing or shooting you at anytime and how do you plan on dealing with him?

Irrelevent to the statements you made: first of all, the scenario is incomplete. Self defense begins long before the situation gets to this point.

Where were 'you' when the confrontation started? And no, "the street" is not an acceptable answer.

How did the four individuals engage 'you' and how did it escalate to the point where you were being held down by one and surrounded by the other three?

Did they demand money? Are 'you' in a rival gang? Did 'you' witness a crime of some kind and get noticed by the perpetrators? Did they insult 'your' honor, resulting in 'you' removing your glove and slapping one of them while uttering the words, "I challenge thee!" Or did one guy jump 'you' from a hidden alcove, secure you while his three accomplices emerged from other hidden places?

I say 'you' as in the general you, not you personally.

Secondly, you never addressed specifically how "things llike ninjutsu, police, and military tactics" would get you out of that scenario whereas karate would be inadequate.

So, you say..

Things like ninjutsu, police, and military tactics are designed for that kind of thing and even worse

I disagree, but as you have put forth the assertion that they are, please elaborate on what "things like ninutsu, police, and military tactics" offer you once you have gotten yourself stuck in such a scenario?

This scenario is not one that you just find yourself in. Things happen before it gets to this point. Any awareness and deescalation training that "things like ninutsu, police, and military tactics" taught the hypothetical victim has failed by this point, so if that is the key ingredient, then apparently, this victim's ninutsu, police, or military tactics training was apparently as inadequate as you say karate is.

If you are going to use such a scenario to support your assertions, then please provide the complete scenario: both the lead up to being held and surrounded and the resolution.

Daniel

 

[Grenadier]

My point is based upon reality and the real world and does not come from any dojo. Out on the street and in places like prisons and even foreign countries your enemy is not going to give a damn about what trophies you might have or as to how well your kata is.

Kata helps you refine your techniques. In addition to this, kata also strengthens the body, and improves focus. Each particular kata can also teach you how to have better control over various aspects of the human body. It is not a flow chart on what to do if attacked.

Imagine for example you are in a fight with several guys out on the street. For arguments sake we'll say that they're are four of them. Three of them are in direct contact with you. One is behind you and is holding you down and back while two of them are taking their turns on you or even helping to hold you down. The fourth guy is standing outside of your reach several feet away and is holding a gun or a very large knife.

What martial art is going to help in that particular situation? If someone were holding a gun from a good distance away, and helped by his three buddies, then you're probably not going to win anyways.

Let's also say for instance that you can outwrangle the three guys that are on you right now. What is to stop the fourth guy from stabbing or shooting you at anytime and how do you plan on dealing with him?

Things like ninjutsu, police, and military tactics are designed for that kind of thing

How would one go about defending himself from an onslaught of four attackers, one of whom is standing at a good distance away with a gun, using his bare hands? I am curious to see what you propose...

and even worse whereas Karate just is not up to the task and the sad part is that many people tend to think that it is and more often than not they end up getting killed all because they underestimated their opponents and the situation and of course did not prepare and train properly for the unexepected.

The same could be said about anyone and anything. By your logic, would that make military training useless, just because some ninny of a colonel underestimated his opposing force, and decided to arm his men with single shot rifles, while the enemy had repeating rifles?

I doubt that any level of military training would have allowed George Armstrong Custer to survive Little Big Horn.

 

[blindsage]

Let's also say for instance that you can outwrangle the three guys that are on you right now. What is to stop the fourth guy from stabbing or shooting you at anytime and how do you plan on dealing with him?

Things like ninjutsu, police, and military tactics are designed for that kind of thing

No they are not. In that scenario you are screwed either way. You're claiming Karate training makes people delusional about situations like this, but your perception of training in general seems pretty delusional.

 

[rdonovan1]

No they are not. In that scenario you are screwed either way. You're claiming Karate training makes people delusional about situations like this, but your perception of training in general seems pretty delusional.

What I am saying is that Karate has basically been stripped of all it's truly effective combative techniques over the years so that it could be turned into a sport and the vast majority of those techniques that were originally designed for combat have been lost.

They did that for a reason as many people initially thought that Karate the way it was orginally developed was way too violent for the competitive sports arena and as a result they decided that the best way to make it more friendly for the competitive sport arena was to take out all of the tactics and techniques that orginally made it a combat art.

All martial arts in Japan were once part of what was called budo which was the study of war and combat. Over the years though many of the martial arts were toned down and turned into the Do classification system.

Martial arts that end in the Do classification are meant for sport and spiritual refinement. Those that have the extension of ryu or jutsu are still designed for actual combat situations.

Ninjutsu is one of the martial arts from Japan that has not been converted over to the Do system at all and according to Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi who is the 34 generation grandmaster of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu it never will be converted either and that is why you do not see anyone in the competitive sports arena using ninjutsu.

Bringing ninjutsu into the sports arena would be a lot like walking down main street with a fully automatic assault rifle, a rocket launcher, and a bag full of explosives. Ninjutsu was at least in feudal Japan the equivalant of our modern day special forces or SWAT as they were very unconventional in their tactics and techniques and saw everything in their environment as a possible weapon that they could use against the Samurai who were at that time the only people who could carry a sword legally and at that time that was the deadliest weapon of the time.

If you were to do your homework about the history of Japan and the martial arts of Japan and Okinawa, then you would already know this and you would also know that what I am saying is true.

 

[K-man]

My point is based upon reality and the real world and does not come from any dojo. Out on the street and in places like prisons and even foreign countries your enemy is not going to give a damn about what trophies you might have or as to how well your kata is.

As far as they are concerned you are the enemy and they will do whatever they can to outsmart and defeat you.

On the street in places like prisons for example your opponent is and will use any tactic and technique that they think will give them the upper hand and if that includes the use of things like guns, knives, explosives or anything else that they can get and use either legally or illegally then they can and will use them without remorse and that is why it is essential for people to be able to know how to properly combat it.

Imagine for example you are in a fight with several guys out on the street. For arguments sake we'll say that they're are four of them. Three of them are in direct contact with you. One is behind you and is holding you down and back while two of them are taking their turns on you or even helping to hold you down. The fourth guy is standing outside of your reach several feet away and is holding a gun or a very large knife.

His intention is to either just shoot you outright or to do something like give you a Mexican necktie by slitting your throat from ear to ear with a really large knife.

Let's also say for instance that you can outwrangle the three guys that are on you right now. What is to stop the fourth guy from stabbing or shooting you at anytime and how do you plan on dealing with him?

Things like ninjutsu, police, and military tactics are designed for that kind of thing and even worse whereas Karate just is not up to the task and the sad part is that many people tend to think that it is and more often than not they end up getting killed all because they underestimated their opponents and the situation and of course did not prepare and train properly for the unexepected.

At first I wasn't sure if you were for real or just looking for a rise. Now I think you may have problems discerning virtual and reality.
In none of my posts will you find reference to trophies or sport karate. I do not train for sport karate nor do I teach for sport karate. I teach vital target striking to my students (from white belt) and tell them where and how to strike. I discourage strikes to areas that have a low probability of disabling an attacker. The training is aimed at multiple attacker scenarios, in other words, try and avoid grappling and going to the ground.
As to an attacker not giving a damn about "how well your kata is", just demonstrates that you do not know what kata is. Kata is just a collection of techniques. How kata is performed is totally irrelevant, that's competition stuff that could be taught to trained monkeys. How you use the techniques is up to the individual. It is determined by your physical structure and is different for everyone. In a dojo we can work together to hone those techniques and make sure they work under pressure.

On the street in places like prisons for example your opponent is and will use any tactic and technique that they think will give them the upper hand and if that includes the use of things like guns, knives, explosives or anything else that they can get and use either legally or illegally then they can and will use them without remorse and that is why it is essential for people to be able to know how to properly combat it.

And I suppose this is why no Allied troops are killed in Afghanistan by IEDs. How do you combat that with Ninjitsu or any other other RBSD? And, because they are in the police-force or military, no police or army personel are ever killed on the streets or in bars? That is total cr*p!
As for being held by three guys while a fourth carves you with a knife. If you are in that situation you had better believe the cavalry will come because your ninjitsu sure as hell ain't going to save you. And even if you did escape the three and couldn't run away, what are your chances against the knife? No matter what your background you have probably a 90%-95% chance of being cut and less than a 10% chance of survival unarmed against a knife fighter intent on killing, be you soldier, policeman or ninja. As for the gun scenario, goodnight my little ninja! I don't buy the 'catching bullets in the teeth' routine.
I'm sorry I have taken you attention for so long, you probably want to get back to your ninjitsu training on your Nintedo! :erg:

 

[K-man]

What I am saying is that Karate has basically been stripped of all it's truly effective combative techniques over the years so that it could be turned into a sport and the vast majority of those techniques that were originally designed for combat have been lost.

They did that for a reason as many people initially thought that Karate the way it was orginally developed was way too violent for the competitive sports arena and as a result they decided that the best way to make it more friendly for the competitive sport arena was to take out all of the tactics and techniques that orginally made it a combat art.

All martial arts in Japan were once part of what was called budo which was the study of war and combat. Over the years though many of the martial arts were toned down and turned into the Do classification system.

Martial arts that end in the Do classification are meant for sport and spiritual refinement. Those that have the extension of ryu or jutsu are still designed for actual combat situations.

Ninjutsu is one of the martial arts from Japan that has not been converted over to the Do system at all and according to Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi who is the 34 generation grandmaster of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu it never will be converted either and that is why you do not see anyone in the competitive sports arena using ninjutsu.

Bringing ninjutsu into the sports arena would be a lot like walking down main street with a fully automatic assault rifle, a rocket launcher, and a bag full of explosives. Ninjutsu was at least in feudal Japan the equivalant of our modern day special forces or SWAT as they were very unconventional in their tactics and techniques and saw everything in their environment as a possible weapon that they could use against the Samurai who were at that time the only people who could carry a sword legally and at that time that was the deadliest weapon of the time.

If you were to do your homework about the history of Japan and the martial arts of Japan and Okinawa, then you would already know this and you would also know that what I am saying is true.

Your last post passed mine in the writing.

What I am saying is that Karate has basically been stripped of all it's truly effective combative techniques over the years so that it could be turned into a sport and the vast majority of those techniques that were originally designed for combat have been lost.

To the best of my knowledge no kata has been stripped of ANY of its techniques, truly effective or even just plain effective. If they weren't effective they would not have been included in the kata in the first place. The kata contain all the techniques that the ninja would have used if the had no weapon. Kata in sport is basically the same now as it was before. That is not the issue though. It is how karate, kung fu, or any other MA is taught is the question.
BTW, karate taught for sport is NOT 'Traditional' karate. I would be among the first to admit that sport karate is just that, sport.
As to 'do' classification, I was not aware that any MAs were subject to that such a differentiation. Do just means 'way', so karate-do is the way of the empty hand. Technically what I train, as do many others on this forum, is karate-jutsu. We are not training to compete at the local Sunday School picnic!

Bringing ninjutsu into the sports arena would be a lot like walking down main street with a fully automatic assault rifle, a rocket launcher, and a bag full of explosives. Ninjutsu was at least in feudal Japan the equivalant of our modern day special forces or SWAT as they were very unconventional in their tactics and techniques and saw everything in their environment as a possible weapon that they could use against the Samurai who were at that time the only people who could carry a sword legally and at that time that was the deadliest weapon of the time.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you were that deadly! Ninjas were never the equivalent of SWAT. They were basically spys and assassins. The employed the art of stealth and rather than saying they were trained to fight the Samurai, they were more trained to do what the Samurai thought was below their honour. The were employed by warlords who would also employ Samurai. The Ninja would be more akin to modern day guerilla forces.

If you were to do your homework about the history of Japan and the martial arts of Japan and Okinawa, then you would already know this and you would also know that what I am saying is true.

We must have read different books!

 

[rdonovan1]

At first I wasn't sure if you were for real or just looking for a rise. Now I think you may have problems discerning virtual and reality.
In none of my posts will you find reference to trophies or sport karate. I do not train for sport karate nor do I teach for sport karate. I teach vital target striking to my students (from white belt) and tell them where and how to strike. I discourage strikes to areas that have a low probability of disabling an attacker. The training is aimed at multiple attacker scenarios, in other words, try and avoid grappling and going to the ground.
As to an attacker not giving a damn about "how well your kata is", just demonstrates that you do not know what kata is. Kata is just a collection of techniques. How kata is performed is totally irrelevant, that's competition stuff that could be taught to trained monkeys. How you use the techniques is up to the individual. It is determined by your physical structure and is different for everyone. In a dojo we can work together to hone those techniques and make sure they work under pressure.

And I suppose this is why no Allied troops are killed in Afghanistan by IEDs. How do you combat that with Ninjitsu or any other other RBSD? And, because they are in the police-force or military, no police or army personel are ever killed on the streets or in bars? That is total cr*p!
As for being held by three guys while a fourth carves you with a knife. If you are in that situation you had better believe the cavalry will come because your ninjitsu sure as hell ain't going to save you. And even if you did escape the three and couldn't run away, what are your chances against the knife? No matter what your background you have probably a 90%-95% chance of being cut and less than a 10% chance of survival unarmed against a knife fighter intent on killing, be you soldier, policeman or ninja. As for the gun scenario, goodnight my little ninja! I don't buy the 'catching bullets in the teeth' routine.
I'm sorry I have taken you attention for so long, you probably want to get back to your ninjitsu training on your Nintedo! :erg:

I don't play nintendo at all and could not tell you the first thing about nintendo. All that I know is that it is some sort of game that kids play and that is very popular amongst kids.

As for Kata. I am very familiar with what Kata is and I can tell you for a fact that no one on the street is going to stand around and wait for you to go through your kata and to get into your traditional karate stance. That kind of thinking is just ludicris thinking at best.

My stuff comes from the real world and it not governed by what you might happen to see in some karate movie featuring Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris nor does it come from any dojo.

As for cops and military personnel getting killed, that stuff happens all of the time. Just not too long ago a police officer in Sanoval County was killed in the line of duty and that was on the news.

I'm not talking about catching bullets with your teeth as that is nothing but pure craziness and is the stuff that you will only find in the movies. What I am talking about is being adapative to your environment and in using whatever tactic and technique might work to save your life either on the street or on the battlefield.

If people think that some gangbanger or terrorist is really going to care about what you have around your waist then they are delusional as they really could care less. It is not about what you have around your waist that makes you a good fighter. It is what you know and as to how effective you are with what you know out in the real world that counts the most.

Knives and guns can be taken away from your opponent or even yourself by someone who is properly trained and that knows what they are doing.

one tactic that would work in a scenario like what I described is by thowing something like sand or dirt into your opponents eyes to temporarilty blind them. If they can't see then how are they going to fight.

While I don't subscribe to any of the Karate Kid movies, I do know that many of the principles that they are talking about in those movies are real. Everyone that know's anything about the martial arts and about real life combat situations knows that if a man can't see then he cannot fight. If he cannot breathe, then he cannot fight, and if he can't stand then he cannot fight. These are all very simple and basic concepts that have been proven to be real by Law Enforcement, Military Personel and even by the ninja out in the real world.

All of it is reality based training and that is what will make the difference in a real fight. Going through kata while very, very good does not truly prepare you for a real fight as a real fight is not the same as what you practice in the dojo because out on the street your enemy does not care about you. All that he cares about is himself and that is it.

 

[Omar B]

As for Kata. I am very familiar with what Kata is and I can tell you for a fact that no one on the street is going to stand around and wait for you to go through your kata and to get into your traditional karate stance. That kind of thinking is just ludicris thinking at best.

It's called Bunkai kid, the application of Kata in real world situations and when I fight it's largely based on this and I've never had a problem with multiple attackers or one. I would advise you to actually take some karate before you judge it's effectiveness. There's a huge difference between practising and internalizing the principles that kata represent and being a moron trying to do Sanchin Kata when attacked on the street, although that's how you seem to think it works.

 

[rdonovan1]

Your last post passed mine in the writing. To the best of my knowledge no kata has been stripped of ANY of its techniques, truly effective or even just plain effective. If they weren't effective they would not have been included in the kata in the first place. The kata contain all the techniques that the ninja would have used if the had no weapon. Kata in sport is basically the same now as it was before. That is not the issue though. It is how karate, kung fu, or any other MA is taught is the question.
BTW, karate taught for sport is NOT 'Traditional' karate. I would be among the first to admit that sport karate is just that, sport.
As to 'do' classification, I was not aware that any MAs were subject to that such a differentiation. Do just means 'way', so karate-do is the way of the empty hand. Technically what I train, as do many others on this forum, is karate-jutsu. We are not training to compete at the local Sunday School picnic!
I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you were that deadly! Ninjas were never the equivalent of SWAT. They were basically spys and assassins. The employed the art of stealth and rather than saying they were trained to fight the Samurai, they were more trained to do what the Samurai thought was below their honour. The were employed by warlords who would also employ Samurai. The Ninja would be more akin to modern day guerilla forces.

We must have read different books!

I think that you are right about our posts passing at the same time. That is a very real possibility.

I'm not sure what books that you have read, but it has been a long time since I read any books relating to the martial arts, but I do remember a good portion of what I studied.

I have taken Tae Kwon Do in the past, and I have not only read books about ninjutsu, but I have also been doing my best to actually study ninjutsu for real. Due to my previous interest in the martial arts and due to movies like the Karate Kid I have done what I could do to study things like Goju-Ryu Karate, Aikido, and Ninjutsu but I have also done what I could to read up about all of them both online and offline.

What you wrote about the ninja being assasins and spies is innacurate. While some of them did engage in those types of activities the majority of them just tried to do what they could do to live in peace and harmony, but more often than not they were not allowed to do so because of the ruling Samurai class.

Basically all the Samurai was was a bully endowed with the right to kill anyone who did not live up to his expectations and that was not a Samurai themselve's.

Under Samurai rule at that time things like theft or even standing wrong could get you killed by a Samurai in a matter of seconds and without warning. I think that probably the best depiction of how the Samurai really were like during those times in film at least is in the movie 'Shogun' by James Clavell which was filmed and released in the 1980's. It however truly depict the ninja at all and that is a common theme is just about every Samurai movie ever made.

Watching movies is great and I just like everyone else likes and enjoys a good martial arts flick as that tends to be a guy thing, but unlike a lot of people out there I do not really believe what I see on the screen as being real as I know that most of that is just made up by Hollywood to satisfy their ego and their ignorance or is outright depicted the wrong way with absolutely no historical fact whatsoever just so that they can sell tickets.

Hollywood is nothing, but a business and if you believe everything that Hollywood tells you, then you are in for a very big let down. Sometimes however they do get things right though, but not very often as for them it is all about sales and marketing as well as money which does not necessarily translate into the truth.

 

[Omar B]

I have taken Tae Kwon Do in the past, and I have not only read books about ninjutsu, but I have also been doing my best to actually study ninjutsu for real. Due to my previous interest in the martial arts and due to movies like the Karate Kid I have done what I could do to study things like Goju-Ryu Karate, Aikido, and Ninjutsu but I have also done what I could to read up about all of them both online and offline.

So what I gather from this you are not doing karate or "ninjutsu" or aikido but are "trying," "reading up" and "doing your best to study." So your arguments against karate, kata's effectiveness or anything else is based on what, Karate Kid? TV?

Whatever you may think you've learned or know of these arts I'm pretty sure you have the wrong impression considering it sounds like you've never stepped foot into a dojo but watch a bunch of movies and read a whole mess of magazines and web sites.

 

[K-man]

I have taken Tae Kwon Do in the past, and I have not only read books about ninjutsu, but I have also been doing my best to actually study ninjutsu for real. Due to my previous interest in the martial arts and due to movies like the Karate Kid I have done what I could do to study things like Goju-Ryu Karate, Aikido, and Ninjutsu but I have also done what I could to read up about all of them both online and offline.

Hollywood is nothing, but a business and if you believe everything that Hollywood tells you, then you are in for a very big let down. Sometimes however they do get things right though, but not very often as for them it is all about sales and marketing as well as money which does not necessarily translate into the truth.

TKD is not a 'traditional' MA. It is a sports based MA first practised in the post WWII era, based on traditional Korean MAs and heavily influenced by Japanese karate, mainly I seem to recall Shotokan. How much TKD did you learn?

Due to my previous interest in the martial arts and due to movies like the Karate Kid I have done what I could do to study things like Goju-Ryu Karate, Aikido, and Ninjutsu but I have also done what I could to read up about all of them both online and offline.

How did you learn so much about Goju Ryu karate and how long did you train. I assume you reached dan grade to be able to tell us that it is not effective in the real would ... but how did you get to that level without the kata? Which kata do you find the most effective in grappling? Personally, I'd go for Seinchin .. but then Seisan has some cool moves too. Perhaps you would like to discuss a couple of the techniques in the kata that don't work for you. I know there are many people on the forum far more qualified than I who would be only too willing to help you if you were to ask nicely. As for Aikido, I get up early two mornings a week, drive for 45 mins each way, to train with some very dedicated, very highly qualified, martial artists in order to better understand my Goju Ryu. Maybe that would help you discern some of the more obscure techniques in the kata. Mind you the Aikido itself is pretty cool once you add the atemi. How did you cope with the hakama, personally I'm not to that level yet but it seems to get in the way for some people.
I'd love to hear more about your ninjitsu training as that is one area I have only read about, apart from throwing sand and stars. I know a few guys studying ninjutsu and they are very good. Actually some of the guys on this forum seem to know a thing or two about ninjutsu too, if you would like to chase them up.
And, the Karate Kid. Great stuff, even if it is only Hollywood. Mind you, a friend of mine has done quite a few movies with Chuck Norris and Jackie Chan. He started out as a personal bodyguard for performers like the Rolling Stones, Linda Rondstat, James Taylor etc and I would not like to be on the wrong side of him. I did a seminar with him a couple of weeks ago and have another booked for next month. Fast, he's like lightning! He teaches nasty things like eye gouges, collapsing the trachea, elbow breaks, shoulder dislocations, knee busts etc, but you're right, Hollywood is all glam. :asian:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

What I am saying is that Karate has basically been stripped of all it's truly effective combative techniques over the years so that it could be turned into a sport and the vast majority of those techniques that were originally designed for combat have been lost.

They did that for a reason as many people initially thought that Karate the way it was orginally developed was way too violent for the competitive sports arena and as a result they decided that the best way to make it more friendly for the competitive sport arena was to take out all of the tactics and techniques that orginally made it a combat art.

All martial arts in Japan were once part of what was called budo which was the study of war and combat. Over the years though many of the martial arts were toned down and turned into the Do classification system.

Martial arts that end in the Do classification are meant for sport and spiritual refinement. Those that have the extension of ryu or jutsu are still designed for actual combat situations.

Ninjutsu is one of the martial arts from Japan that has not been converted over to the Do system at all and according to Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi who is the 34 generation grandmaster of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu it never will be converted either and that is why you do not see anyone in the competitive sports arena using ninjutsu.

Bringing ninjutsu into the sports arena would be a lot like walking down main street with a fully automatic assault rifle, a rocket launcher, and a bag full of explosives. Ninjutsu was at least in feudal Japan the equivalant of our modern day special forces or SWAT as they were very unconventional in their tactics and techniques and saw everything in their environment as a possible weapon that they could use against the Samurai who were at that time the only people who could carry a sword legally and at that time that was the deadliest weapon of the time.

If you were to do your homework about the history of Japan and the martial arts of Japan and Okinawa, then you would already know this and you would also know that what I am saying is true.

Will you please answer the questions that I asked you earlier. Provide the technical reasons why karate will not work.

Saying that it has been stripped of its lethal techniques is a cop out. It has ample techniques that can be lethal. Which ryus are you talking about?

And saying that the ninjutsu was the equivalent of SWAT is just nonsense, so perhaps you should do your homework before posting such nonsense. And I do crosstrain at a Jinenkan school, so I do have some exposure to legitimate ninjutsu.

I asked you numerous pointed and very specific questions. Answer them please. Support your statements with more than BB Magazine advertising fluff, which is essentially what the above quoted post amounts to.

Daniel