Why TKD is not effective for self defense and sometimes rejected

[KenpoTex]

know if you were to train in korea, then very few people would be able to much against you here in the states. why? the reason is when they spar, you donn't score a point unless you acculy knok your opponent back with the force of your kick.
john

This is the second thread in which you've made this claim. However, I must respectfully disagree. About a 2 years ago, one of the guys at our studio had his nephew staying with him for a visit so he brought him in to the studio. The nephew grew up in Korea and was a 2nd-black in TKD. His technique looked good. However, when it came time to spar, he got beaten by everyone in the class (green and brown-belts). His repertoire consisted of fancy high-kicks and little or no hand technique whereas us nasty Kenpo guys kick to the groin and punch people.

Now I realize that you can't judge an entire group of practicioners by one individual (and I have nothing against this guy) however, his material was obviously not "up to snuff." Others might argue that it wasn't a fair comparison because the systems were/are so different. To me however, that's exactly the point. If an individual gets thoroughly "stomped" by people that are still playing by quite a few rules, how is he/she going to fare when dealing with someone that's not abiding by any?

BTW: spell-check is your friend

edit to add: I'm not interested in debating the "TKD for self-defense" issue, I was just responding to the "blanket statement" I referenced. No offense to any TKD practicioner was implied.

 

[MJS]

the main reason that taekwondoka (i think) is because teakwon do focuses on high kicks and in training that is free style their is little to no similaritly to real life situation. what is a real life situaton? for most that means kicking the gut and punching the head. both of which are frond upon in taekwondo freestyle. now donn't get me wrong some taekwondoka train in very realistic situations. taekwondo, in general, is really only good against other teakwondoka. know if you were to train in korea, then very few people would be able to much against you here in the states. why? the reason is when they spar, you donn't score a point unless you acculy knok your opponent back with the force of your kick. now personaly, i don't like point sparring at all, but what ever floats your boat.

sweet Brighit bless your blade

john

I have to go with Kenpotex on this one. Martial Arts training, while it should give you the edge over someone, does not turn people into Supermen. While the training overseas may be a little more hardcore, it does not make you invincible.

Mike

 

[RichK]

Whew, this thread went all over the place. let me see if I can make a few tags while trying to remember all the post. That means no bashing me if got lost amongst all the petty bickering. Original post about why people are switching from TKD. Someone posted about 3 reasons why people train, that explains why someone may get into one style and jump ship, because it may not even be for them. I saw all "TKD" posts which is still a generalization, what about the subsids like Moo Duk Kwon, Tang Soo Do, Hapkido....... Back in 1980 I started TKD with the empasis in Moo Duk Kwon. My instructor learned it while stationed in Korea. We had great empasis on SD. The generalization that TKD is sport is a GENERALIZATION. Have you ever visited or worked out with the ROK TKD guys? If not then don't say TKD is geared towards sport. Here in the states the majority of that is true but there are still schools that teach quite a bit of the other items that were hit on. And I don't want to hear anything about "then it's not TKD". So what the heck is MMA??? (Yes, I do know the answer to that) Just because there is a TKD sign on the door means they can't teach anything else but ITF, ATF or WTF curiculum? Just because there is no compitetion in Aikido, and people rant there are no hand strikes (which there are) because we do not aggresssively show them, means I can not apply it on the street in a SD situation. I have always hated the football coach statement of "you play like you train", because that is not completly true for everyone. So yes I can state that the comments about doing something on the mat and doing them on the street is a generalization. Name me one MA that trains everyone to smash a nose (yes mine has been broken very bad during sparring) or break bones (all of my toes have been broken with most being 2 or more times, very badly bruised ribs, dents all along both shin bones and a dislocated shoulder) during training so they can do it on the street in an SD situation? If that were the case how many parents would leave their children in class, how many schools would still be open? I have trained in numerous MA's because I, read again "I", A-had to because of moving around every few years and B-because I wanted to diversify my training. I teach two styles, one traditional and one not because I enjoy them along with all of the MA's. I will speak with anyone interesed in babling about MA and will learn from anyone that is willing to show me something new and different.
Yes I will admit that most of the TKD schools nowadays, maybe I shouldn't say most but most of the major chain type, are "white dot focus" schools...hehe couldn't resist. Meaning that they teach the young ones that "if you hit someone with one punch or one kick to the head with a large exhale of air making this noise the fight will stop". Well sorry but there are too many variables, plus if you hit me in the head you will A-hurt yourself B-make me laugh at you or C-tick me off (yes I am saying I have a hard head). So I guess TKD schools can't (oops a four letter word) teach outside of the MINIMUM GENERAL GUIDELINES? So I guess any school that teaches anything different from the way Mr. Ugh Lumphead-Rex originally taught it is wrong. "But wait you can't say that because my MA has only been around for 50 years". So you are telling me that you can not change or teach anything different now because Mr 50 Years Ago Founder wrote it down on a piece of paper and all of his students made thier own organizations now and have written thier own interpretations and magazine articles for someone else to quote????? That's absurd! Sorry for the long babble but I have heard this kind of mine is better than yours crap for 25 years and there are others here who have heard it longer.

 

[MJS]

Just because there is no compitetion in Aikido, and people rant there are no hand strikes (which there are) because we do not aggresssively show them, means I can not apply it on the street in a SD situation.

You have a good point. As long as its being trained, one would think that it'd be able to be applied.

I have always hated the football coach statement of "you play like you train", because that is not completly true for everyone. So yes I can state that the comments about doing something on the mat and doing them on the street is a generalization.

If someone is practicing techniques and their partner always punches to the side of the head, rather than at the intended target, stops short of making contact, offers little to no resistance, etc., that person is going to begin to develop false assumptions in their training. People who assume that because the technique worked in the dojo, that the same technique is going to work when someone is hell bent on taking their head off, is going to be in for a surprise. The person on the street is not going to stop their punch. That being said if some resistance was given or contact made, I would imagine their training would be different.

Name me one MA that trains everyone to smash a nose (yes mine has been broken very bad during sparring) or break bones (all of my toes have been broken with most being 2 or more times, very badly bruised ribs, dents all along both shin bones and a dislocated shoulder) during training so they can do it on the street in an SD situation? If that were the case how many parents would leave their children in class, how many schools would still be open?

Another good point. It always used to amaze me when people would bring their kids in for their lesson. They would sit there watching their child do an eye poke, hammerfist to the nose, kick to the groin, and their eyes would be popping out of their head. They'd have a look on their face like, "Oh my God, my child is doing these violent strikes?" Well, NEWS flash for them. If they think that their small child is going to be able to do some wrist lock on an adult, they'd stand a better chance of poking them in the eye.

As far as adding in that little bit of realism to the training. Of course we're not actually going to break someones neck, take an eye or break an arm, but with the proper gear and some imagination, we can create that real feeling to our training.


Mike

 

[Jerry]

That means no bashing me if got lost amongst all the petty bickering.

No problem here. I'm far more interested in critiquing / discussing points of a post than the person posting.

I saw all "TKD" posts which is still a generalization, what about the subsids like Moo Duk Kwon, Tang Soo Do, Hapkido

Those would be MDK, TSD, and Hapkido, not TKD. What about them? They are seperate arts.

The generalization that TKD is sport is a GENERALIZATION. Have you ever visited or worked out with the ROK TKD guys? If not then don't say TKD is geared towards sport.

This is very vague. I know that I've made some very specific critiques of TKD as a fighting art. Can you tell me how the critique is invalid or how it does not apply to TKD pratitioners in Korea?

And I don't want to hear anything about "then it's not TKD". So what the heck is MMA??? (Yes, I do know the answer to that) Just because there is a TKD sign on the door means they can't teach anything else but ITF, ATF or WTF curiculum?

They may teach Greco-Roman wrestling if it suits their tastes... however it would not be TKD.

Just because there is no compitetion in Aikido, and people rant there are no hand strikes (which there are) because we do not aggresssively show them, means I can not apply it on the street in a SD situation.

Most schools of Akido use atrikes only as Atemi (distractions). One premise of Akido is that the attacker is in a loosing position... so training to attack would defeat the premise.

I have always hated the football coach statement of "you play like you train", because that is not completly true for everyone. So yes I can state that the comments about doing something on the mat and doing them on the street is a generalization. Name me one MA that trains everyone to smash a nose (yes mine has been broken very bad during sparring) or break bones (all of my toes have been broken with most being 2 or more times, very badly bruised ribs, dents all along both shin bones and a dislocated shoulder) during training so they can do it on the street in an SD situation?

Name one boxer that doesn't train boxing. I train to break bones. There are things I do in practice (mostly involving speed) to avoid it actually occuring in play.

But to say that you will act in a fundamnetally different way under stress than you have in practice is not supported by the facts. A wrestler is not likely to suddenly start kickboxing under stress. He will do what he knows.

Similarly, the problem faced by TKD is the use of hard blocks, high kicks, and very restrictive rules of sparring; as well as only dealing with opponents under such limiting rules. I find no reason to believe that a TKD practitioner, having spent hundreds of hours learning to defend his chest but not his knee, will sudennly defend his knees with proficiency.

So you are telling me that you can not change or teach anything different now because Mr 50 Years Ago Founder wrote it down on a piece of paper and all of his students made thier own organizations now and have written thier own interpretations and magazine articles for someone else to quote????? That's absurd!

You may change anything you like... though you may not be discussing TKD any longer.