Why TKD is not effective for self defense and sometimes rejected

[terryl965]

To those who replied to my post...you missed my point entirely. Terryl965, if you read my post closer you will see that I do believe TKD and many other arts can and do produce great self defense. The point that I was making is that, as arnisdor noted, the vast majority of TKD schools in America (at least on the west coast where I have experience) do not emphasis hard combat / self defense training.

You're art can even go so far as to teach a plethora of self defense techniques, but as the old adage says, you perform as you practice. If all you ever do is point spar to the protected chest and head, you will not pull out your self defense techniques when the hammer drops. It is conditioned response...reflexes. You might "know" low kicks and joint locks, but there is a difference between knowing and internalizing, ingraining.

Regardless, techniques don't make an art self defense worthy anyway. I know quite a few Hapkidoists that can't fight. My money, in general, would fall to Boxers, Judoka, BJJ, Wrestlers etc. simply because of their traininig methodology.

The funny thing is that I started my training in TKD...got to brown through two different schools...did very well in tournaments...I even used it to defend myself on a few occasions.

Kyle I'm not missing your point at all the thread evolve into my response, as far as your comment about condition response please my friend all SD is speculation it is about action and re-action and over my forty years between Okinawa Karate and Judo along with my TKD I can honestly say that you can not train yourself for self defense only you train so you are in a position to handle the action when and if it ever comes your way with a re-action. Kyle we would have to dis-agree on what is best because as you have said it not the Art but the man or woman behind said Art, I have meet so many people from so many Arts and seen great ones and Bad ones that could not get themself out of a wet paper bag if they had too. I see you was from a sport school in TKD great we teach the sport to the childern and they like the competition which is great and wheen they get old enough and mature enough I will teach them proper SD from my way of thinking, right or wrong this is my opion, we teach basic SD to the child so they can get away if need be but only enough to hopefully help them to get away.
I respect your point of view and I have enjoyed this post and look forward to some more responses. I hope your life is a happy journey.
Terry L Stoker

 

[Karushi]

Use what you have learned from TKD and move to something new because the more options you have the better. Also never lose faith in martial arts. NEVER.

 

[Marginal]

The sentiment of this response is repeated several times. It would be entirely possible for an instructor to teach the requirement for TKD then ignore it and teach Akido the rest of the time. This would not be TKD, which is the only thing I am trying to comment on.

Which is just silly. Any time TKD goes beyond the WTF sparring rules you like to frequently list, you claim that anything outside of that isn't TKD. (Neat way to button up that TKD is X box I guess. )

No, my general criticism was:

"The cirriculum for TKD (WTF/ITF/ATF) simply isn't focused on fighting."​

My apoligies. You've made so many threadbare generializations that I lost track.

Even with a cirriculum that added counter-grapples or hip-throws to drills or step-sparring, that criticism remains.

All of that's already there, so adding it wouldn't change much, you're right.

I've supported that with far more than a lack of grappling work. Where is your weapons sparring (have you ever tried your knife/anti-knife work against an FMA practitionr?

So you have to be attacked with knifes/weapons against a FMA practitioner to in order to ever know how to fight? There are very few arts on their own that cover your requirements (more like none) do you also strongly reccommend that people avoid Kenpo, Shotokan, MT (no weapons, or mount excapes) BJJ, etc?

How does the ITF teach to escape a mount?

How many ways are there?

What's your basic approact to multiple-attackers?

So... You're saying this isn't covered? Please explain.

How much sparring time do you put into hand work against resisting opponents?

Pretty much every time we spar.

How much of your grappling work do you put against resisting opponents?

Couldn't have gotten through testing without demonstrating that.

And that's mostly dealing with training regemine. It's possible for a school teaching TKD to allow all that, though I doubt that the people involved would long practice TKD as a response.

Yes. "And now, Mr. Stabby!" would make folks wonder.

To hit a single criticism, TKD spends way to much time on one leg. Follow the shoulder on any spinning kick (a *really* good mule kick being the occasional exception) and you are behind the kicker. A simple lift-kick up the middle (leg, groin, whatever you connect with works) trumps any slower front kick from the cirriculum. The axe kick is a horrible idea combatively as you are trying to move your foot about 12 feet while standing within arms-reach of your opponent.

Great. (Not sure why you think those are presented as self-defense moves tho.) You still seem to be arguing purely from the standpoint of WTF rules sparring.

Where *in the official cirriculum* is falling? fighting from the ground?

Falling's a green belt requirement. Ground fighting's a 3rd Dan reqirement.

What's their knifework like?

One would hope there's no knifework. TKD's not a weapons oriented MA.

Have they abandoned "blocking",

During sparring, yes.

http://www.tkd.risp.pl/Juras_HL_Extreme.wmv Hmm... link's dead. Anyone know an alternate source? (Interesting 'cause it shows ITF sparring, and the same guy in a MMA ring... Oh well.)

I don't dislike TKD, but I'm not going to believe it is something it is not because its important to people. If there's a good, combative TKD, I'd love to see it.

In all honesty, you haven't looked that hard.​

 

[bignick]

It's time like these when I wish MichiganTKD was still here...yeah, he could be an ***...but he knew his stuff...and it was always great listening to his rants on subjects like this...

 

[terryl965]

It's time like these when I wish MichiganTKD was still here...yeah, he could be an ***...but he knew his stuff...and it was always great listening to his rants on subjects like this...

I agee whole hearted with this statement!!

 

[Brad Dunne]

The statement that if you would just pick a TKD school out of the phone book, you will wind up with the sport version, I would have to agree with. The so-called real TKD or Old School Dojang is a very rare commodity. Most of the people that started back in the day are at the Senior level of society. I would venture to say that not very many are still active or teaching. NOTE HERE!----operative word(s) is MOST!........

My personal opinion is that anything of a competition nature, envolving the martial arts, does a serious dis-service to both the art and the student. To quantify that statement, remember the adage, "You fight like you train". In addition, I'm sure we have all witnessed the bad attitudes and lack of humility and the heavy lack of respect, while watching the proceedings at a tournament. It has even gone so far as to cheat, just to win a lousy piece of plastic. Is that really what TKD or the arts are all about?

 

[terryl965]

Please training for tournament and trainig for the outside world is two different aspect of MA, you can do both and become effient in them and please do not say no I can give you a houndred or so people that have done both and did just fine with them.

 

[Brad Dunne]

"Please training for tournament and trainig for the outside world is two different aspect of MA, you can do both and become effient in them and please do not say no I can give you a houndred or so people that have done both and did just fine with them."

Two different aspects..........That's the main point of "You fight as you train".

I too can defer to many who have found that their TKD training was found to be lacking. Way to many people questioning TKD's validity in the street and other's recounting stories of TKD people getting beat in a real fight.

Remember, we are speaking of TKD overall. At your school, you may very well be able to share with your students the difference between the gym and the street, but unless the individual can grasp the correct mindset (difficult to do for many) between the two, it becomes a mute point. Not to sound overly obtuse, but I find the statement of "give you a hundred or so people that have done both and did just fine", difficult to palate.

 

[shesulsa]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-G Ketchmark (shesulsa)
-MT Senior Moderator-

 

[terryl965]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-G Ketchmark (shesulsa)
-MT Senior Moderator-

Mam if for any reason I sounded not politeful or respectful I'm sorry I try to watch how I say things. My humble apologies.
Terry Lee Stoker

 

[Brad Dunne]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Dually Noted! although I don't feel that either myself or Mr. Stoker has overstepped any boundaries. We merely offered opinions.

 

[arnisador]

Dually Noted! although I don't feel that either myself or Mr. Stoker has overstepped any boundaries.

(Emphasis added.) Love the pun!

 

[KyleShort]

Mr. Stoker, I smile. You are a genuine and pleasant fellow, thanks I agree that we can disagree and though I feel my point valid, I submit that your point can be every bit as valid, if not more given your experience.

 

[terryl965]

Mr. Stoker, I smile. You are a genuine and pleasant fellow, thanks I agree that we can disagree and though I feel my point valid, I submit that your point can be every bit as valid, if not more given your experience.

Thank You KyleShort I do agree with alot of what you have said and I relize that in general the Micky Dees' of TKD is speading like a wildfire in the middle of summer, I can remember when this was a Art form and it was appreciated by the masses, now adays people assume everybody is like that one day all us oldtimers will be gone and the sport will grab it and finally just remove it from the Art all together. I'm hoping some of my students will find a niche and keep things the old way but who knows maybe one of my three son's, anyway I look forward to more post on this matter and to see everybody views.
Terry Lee Stoker

 

[Jerry]

Apologies, but I've moved around a couple of your points to lump similar ones together. As it is, I'm unhappy with the "line-response-counter" nature of the post which both lowers clarity and tends to lean to "did not, did too"-type arguments. The purpose of rearranging has been to make more cohesive responses in a smaller area, and I hope I've preserved the intent of your post despite this.

Why not? You seem to be lumping together all TKD into one category, the WTF alone is a worldwide organization with millions of participants and to say there is uniformity even within one group is preposterous. I can't make general claims about TKD, because I don't represent TKD as a whole, I can only represent what I was taught and how my school works, to do any more would be disingenous.

And I cannot discuss 500,000 schools I have not seen, though I have discussed problems with the core material (such as techniques like the ax kick) which cannot be remedied by addition of more material.

There are standardized bodies, and I'm happy to discuss them individually as far as my knowledge goes. Of the three, the ITF has been traditionally seen as the most combative; though I can only presume this is still the case.

Which is just silly. Any time TKD goes beyond the WTF sparring rules you like to frequently list, you claim that anything outside of that isn't TKD. (Neat way to button up that TKD is X box I guess. )
[...]
In all honesty, you haven't looked that hard

You lack any sort of positive claim here. Instead of just telling me I'm wrong, why don't you tell me what you think TKD actually is in a manner that we can discuss it's performace as a fighting art? As to looking, I'm here now, why don't you show me or point me at reasources?

My apoligies. You've made so many threadbare generializations that I lost track.

Passive aggressive "backhanded apology" with no probative value

All of that's already there, so adding it wouldn't change much, you're right.
[...]
So you have to be attacked with knifes/weapons against a FMA practitioner to in order to ever know how to fight? There are very few arts on their own that cover your requirements (more like none) do you also strongly reccommend that people avoid Kenpo, Shotokan, MT (no weapons, or mount excapes) BJJ, etc?

These are both straw-man logical fallacies. I've already reiterated my base criticism, though I believe the latter one may be unintentional.

I am not claiming that one needs to have been attacked by an FMA practitioner with a knife in order to have a fighting art. I am suggesting that those in TKD who believe they have a fighting art do play knife-work with an FMA practitioner. The result of such play, I assert, will be the illustration to the TKD practitioner that his art has no good knife or counter-knife skills.

I further assert that an art with no knife skills is not a combative-focused art.

Similarly, playing with a BJJ practitioner will allow a TKD practitioner to find out if he has effective grappling skills. Again, I do not assert that such play is neccessairy in order to be studying a fighting art, rather that the results of such play are telling of the nature and ability of the art in question.

This goes back to the original poster's question of why people will abandon TKD in favor of another art. In my case, and in many cases, it's because I interacted with some other arts and found mine lacking in a manner which I could not easily shore-up.

How many ways are there?

I have no idea. What I do know is that the mount is a common position that groundfighting arts, and many amitures will seek out... having a response to it would seem to be indicitive of a combative (or grappling sport) art, and a lack of a response of a non-combative art.

So... You're saying this isn't covered? Please explain.

Explain the question? I'm asking what your approach is to multiple attackers. I don't know a more simple way of asking it. I do realize it's something of a broad question, and I'm certainly not asking for a dissertation on multiple-attacker fighting. I'm merely attempting to establish whether you've got an art with a considered, reasonable approach to the problem or not. It's not an uncommon scenerio for a fight, and so I would expect any fighting art to have a response to it.

Pretty much every time we spar.
[...]
Couldn't have gotten through testing without demonstrating that.
[...]
Falling's a green belt requirement. Ground fighting's a 3rd Dan reqirement.

Not under WTF rules (unless you would like to count punching at each other's chest-plate). I'm more interested in grappling / counter-grappling (and better still, striking which is inclusive of it).

There has been a near-universal agreement about "realistic training". Unless you wish to dispute that in reality, people push and grab, I'd like to know how much sparring time is spent on that. How much time to you spend sparring with an opponent who is also trying to win where grappling is allowed?

Great. (Not sure why you think those are presented as self-defense moves tho.) You still seem to be arguing purely from the standpoint of WTF rules sparring.
[...]
During sparring, yes. [blocking has been abandoned]

Why are they presented at all? Why would you train over and over something you would disctinctly avoid in a fight? They teach blocking, have it in the forms, then tell you to not ever do it?

One would hope there's no knifework. TKD's not a weapons oriented MA.

My point exactly.

 

[Marginal]

(Out of respect to the mods, I edited this down.)

There are standardized bodies, and I'm happy to discuss them individually as far as my knowledge goes. Of the three, the ITF has been traditionally seen as the most combative; though I can only presume this is still the case.

Even though you were perfectly willing to lump every single TKD org into the same boat only two posts back...

Explain the question?

Yep. Why do you seem to think that nothing's taught on the issue of multiple attackers?

Not under WTF rules

Ah. Well then. This solves all the issues I had with your broad claims regarding the ITF.

Why are they presented at all? Why would you train over and over something you would disctinctly avoid in a fight? They teach blocking, have it in the forms, then tell you to not ever do it?

They don't distinctly avoid them, most issues are covered in sparring with your basic hands up position and stonewalling. That's also not saying that the blocks absolutely are not used in sparring. Things change depending on the dynamics of the situation. Would I go out of my way to deliver a down block? No.

My point exactly.

The real point is, very few arts are complete. You don't take BJJ for its striking for example. I don't see you leaping up and down regarding the combative flaws inherent there. Seems like you've created your own set of strawmen to push around. "TKD must be complete, if it is not, then it is not a combative art. Please test this by challenging other arts that are also not complete combative systems to determine if TKD is suitable for self defense purposes."

 

[47MartialMan]

So, the basis of TKD as used for defense is upon three factors;

* Teacher Ability

* Student Ability/Determination

* Tactics used/taught/learned


Is this correct?

 

[MJS]

The majority of TKD schools that I have seen focus on the sport aspect. However, I'm certianly no authority on TKD and I do not know what the various ones...WTF, ITF, etc.....teach, so I really can't comment on what is/is not taught. That being said, everyone will have different goals in mind when they're searching for an art to train in. All arts, in one way or another, have things that they are stronger in than others. If someone wants to round out their skills, they can cross train or cross referrence other arts. In addition, I really don't see what all the fuss is about. I see the same thing in the Kenpo world. Org. A teaches slightly different than org. B, and the people from A say that B is not teaching true Kenpo. My question is: Why does it bother people so much? If you're not taking TKD, have no interest in TKD, then why worry what is being taught?

Mike

 

[Marginal]

Silly. TKD doesn't have a huge representation in MMA. Therefore it's everyone's business.

 

[47MartialMan]

The majority of TKD schools that I have seen focus on the sport aspect. However, I'm certianly no authority on TKD and I do not know what the various ones...WTF, ITF, etc.....teach, so I really can't comment on what is/is not taught. That being said, everyone will have different goals in mind when they're searching for an art to train in. All arts, in one way or another, have things that they are stronger in than others. If someone wants to round out their skills, they can cross train or cross referrence other arts. In addition, I really don't see what all the fuss is about. I see the same thing in the Kenpo world. Org. A teaches slightly different than org. B, and the people from A say that B is not teaching true Kenpo. My question is: Why does it bother people so much? If you're not taking TKD, have no interest in TKD, then why worry what is being taught?

Mike

Because it the age-old idea-

Comparing and preferences