Why TKD is not effective for self defense and sometimes rejected

[terryl965]

Kyle why is it everybody lumps all TKD together, I started out in Okinawa Karate and swicthed over to TKD in the early eighties my old Dojaang ephasis self defense and ground work we try to bring this to the table at my Dojaang, you need to remember the golden rule of self defense never ever under estimate your potential fow. I'm not saying I'm the greates and maybe I bring some of my old Okinawa Karate to the table once in a while but I know if push comes to solve I'm able to do damage to someone but that has not happen in years wisdom comes with age I guess.

Terry

 

[Marginal]

Kyle why is it everybody lumps all TKD together,

Because it's easy and nobody cares enough to bother researching outside of whatever preconceptions they've already generated. (For example, if you throw a low kick, you're just doing MT now, not TKD. Even though olympic sparring rules don't define TKD, they somehow magically always do. Whatever.)

 

[Jerry]

Jerry no disrespect here towards you but you are putting all TKD together please leave Olympic or point sparring out of the mix. traditional TKD teaches joint locks take downs and some weapontry. I relize there are alot of TKD school that teaches nothing but the above mention but there are some school that teaches traditional TKD.

I don't believe that there is such a thing as "traditional TKD"; and I'm referring to the official ITF, WTF, and ATF ciriculums. There are some very basic standing joint-locks in the post-dan material in most of those, but the problems I mentioned remain.

That said, there are many Hyung which trace a liniage back farther than TKD, or which have incorporated non TKD material in the more recent past... and I'm not trying to make a blanket commentary on what ever school with a TKD label does... that would be foolhardy.

If someone can point me back to an "original TKD", I'm more than happy to look at it and revise my conclusions regarding this accordingly (giving an older system precedenct over the three main styles taught today), but I'm not aware of one existing.

Now if you do study TKD and want to be the exception...just engage in friendly sparring with Boxers, MMA, Jeet Kune Do, Kickboxers etc. and asses your gaps...spend a lot of time on the heavy bag and take it from there.

A suggestion I strongly second. The proof, as they say, is on the floor. If you are doing well against thaiboxers and MMA fighters and grapplers in limited-rules play, then you are doing well.

 

[Marginal]

I don't believe that there is such a thing as "traditional TKD"; and I'm referring to the official ITF, WTF, and ATF ciriculums. There are some very basic standing joint-locks in the post-dan material in most of those, but the problems I mentioned remain.

Basic standing joint locks have been color belt material in the ITF for ages now. Where are you getting this stuff?

 

[arnisador]

The art does matter, but people don't always appreciate how much how you train matters.

As to TKD, it's true that not everyone teaches Olympic TKD...but it's also true that if you walk into a random TKD school in the U.S. then there's a 90% chance it's doing sport TKD. (Statistics made up on the sport here.) It's hard to find self-defense oriented TKD i the U.S., in my experience.

 

[pnoy_kickfighter]

I have two questions. Why does TKD puts emphasis on olympic sparring a lot? Second, can anyone point me to the nearest TKD school near Seattle that does self defense

 

[Adept]

Why does TKD puts emphasis on olympic sparring a lot?

I honestly don't know. I guess it's the thrill of competition and the glory of winning and being acknowledged as a state or area champion.

Personally, the whole competition aspect holds no allure for me.

 

[terryl965]

The main part of why is simple Korea wanted to be recognize as it wn stand alone country and deplyed so nany instructors all over the place to developed there stronghold on this type of MA and\ Western civilazation sweeped it up and made it the sport it is today. Korea knew if it got America behind them they Olympics was in the near future and would give them there noteraty they where looking for.

Terry

 

[Jerry]

Basic standing joint locks have been color belt material in the ITF for ages now. Where are you getting this stuff?

My knowledge of ITF would be the weakest of the three, having trained in a WTF school and having had the most access to WTF and ATF material.

My knowledge of ITF in specific comes primiarily from a large number of articles on and by ITF practitioners over the years I was involved in WTF. If they teach joint-locks sooner, I was unaware and stand corrected. Do you know where I can find a copy of the ITF syllibus?

The problem, unfortunately, remains. While I'm well aware of ITF's greater focus on fighting, the general criticism applies equally well (unless, in the past 15 years, they have completely abandoned their cirriculum in favor of another).

 

[arnisador]

Why does TKD puts emphasis on olympic sparring a lot?

It's been every effective for them as a business model. The sport aspect draws people in, and for parents it seems like less-violent self-defense for their children.

Plus, it's nice to have your own Olympic sport! That must be appreciated in Korea.

 

[bignick]

My knowledge of ITF would be the weakest of the three, having trained in a WTF school and having had the most access to WTF and ATF material.

My knowledge of ITF in specific comes primiarily from a large number of articles on and by ITF practitioners over the years I was involved in WTF. If they teach joint-locks sooner, I was unaware and stand corrected. Do you know where I can find a copy of the ITF syllibus?

The problem, unfortunately, remains. While I'm well aware of ITF's greater focus on fighting, the general criticism applies equally well (unless, in the past 15 years, they have completely abandoned their cirriculum in favor of another).

We are a WTF school and basic joint locks and other basic self defense techniques are introduced within the first couple days of training...

 

[Jerry]

We are a WTF school and basic joint locks and other basic self defense techniques are introduced within the first couple days of training...

They exist neither in Poomsae 1, nor in the white-belt test requirement under WTF.

Further, going to the WTF's website (www.kukkiwon.or.kr) and looking at the "basic techniques" (http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/tkskill/kibon.asp?div=3), which are the requirement for 1st Dan; I find no mention of grappling technique.

Further, I have a copy of one of Jhoon Rhee's books on TKD (covering the first three gups), which includes a "self defense" section. There is no grappling in it, and the response to being grappled include things like the lunge-punch.



Even more telling is looking at the rules for sparring in WTF (http://www.wtf.org/site/rules/competition.htm#11). Illegal acts include:

- Falling down

- Grabbing, holding or pushing the opponent
- Pretending injury
- Butting or attacking with knee
- Hitting the opponent’s face with the hand
- Attacking the fallen opponent
- Throwing down the opponent by grappling the opponent’s attacking foot in the air with the arm or by pushing the opponent with the hand

​

Grappleing (to use one example) is not in the pre-Dan poomsae, is not in the official curriculum for Dan1 testing, and is not allowed in sparring. On what do you base the claim that it is sufficiently emphasized in the art? Because your school does it? I'm not talking about your school, I'm talking about TKD.I appriciate the enthusiasm for one's art, and I appriciate that schools attempt to have different emphasis. I know a Karate school here that used to say "Kempo"... the instructor hasn't changed, and I've seen more than one Hapkido school that said TKD on the door. In point of fact, TKD used to be in the states as "Korean Karate". The moral of this story is that a sign on a door, or even an affiliation does not an art make.

There are some problems with the foundational material of TKD from a fighting perspective (rarely can I make a case that a spinning kick is a good idea, for example); and the official cirriculum and training rules are woefully limited.

I know it may seem otherwise, but I'm really not trying to bash TKD; but I am trying to be honest about where it is focused and what it can and cannot do.

 

[TigerWoman]

The WTF site just lists minimum basics it appears to me. I would venture to say each school organization has a different set of basics and requirements in addition to that. It is up to each master on what his curriculum is and what he tests for. I know one large org alsto WTF, here in Minnesota does alot of tumbling. We don't. We do alot of self-defense though, which includes locks, grabs, chokes, standup and ground grappling to some extent. So they could very well teach grappling at a white belt level. It depends on the focus of the master or grandmaster. TW

 

[pnoy_kickfighter]

At my WTF school we do self defense as part of the curiculum. But our sparring is sport type. Our Instructor shows us self defense techniques to use in case of emergency. What are the factors that could tell me if a certain technique can be used in a real fight situation

 

[bignick]

They exist neither in Poomsae 1, nor in the white-belt test requirement under WTF.

Just because something is not in the requirements for a rank does not mean it is not taught. And most schools have their own requirements and test as such. Simple takedowns like sweeps and hip throws start to be taught and are required for testing at the orange belt level for adults in my school.

Even more telling is looking at the rules for sparring in WTF (http://www.wtf.org/site/rules/competition.htm#11). Illegal acts include:- Falling down

- Grabbing, holding or pushing the opponent
- Pretending injury
- Butting or attacking with knee
- Hitting the opponent’s face with the hand
- Attacking the fallen opponent
- Throwing down the opponent by grappling the opponent’s attacking foot in the air with the arm or by pushing the opponent with the hand

Please see my signature for a response to this. And Judo competition allows no striking, but it is present in the art of Judo. The rules of competition do not define an art.

Grappleing (to use one example) is not in the pre-Dan poomsae,

I guess that will depend on who's teaching and how they interpret the form...

 

[Marginal]

My knowledge of ITF in specific comes primiarily from a large number of articles on and by ITF practitioners over the years I was involved in WTF. If they teach joint-locks sooner, I was unaware and stand corrected. Do you know where I can find a copy of the ITF syllibus?

I know the USTF syllabus (which was largely used in the US up til the ITF fracturing) can be had off www.ustf-itf.com for ~$10. Also the ITF color belt patterns feature releases from grabs, clinches etc. http://www.itf-online.com/mastersclass.htm (I've heard that this DVD set contains such applications for grappling elements from the patterns etc.)

The problem, unfortunately, remains. While I'm well aware of ITF's greater focus on fighting, the general criticism applies equally well (unless, in the past 15 years, they have completely abandoned their cirriculum in favor of another).

Your general criticism was: "ITF does not practice standing joint locks until Black Belt". You're willing to say it still holds up even though you don't know what the cirriculum actually is, or if there's one at all?

 

[47MartialMan]

Well, my TKD instructor also taught Hapkido.

There was a separate self defense curriculum.

Will this still be considered as TKD?

 

[Jerry]

The WTF site just lists minimum basics it appears to me. I would venture to say each school organization has a different set of basics and requirements in addition to that. It is up to each master on what his curriculum is and what he tests for.

The sentiment of this response is repeated several times. It would be entirely possible for an instructor to teach the requirement for TKD then ignore it and teach Akido the rest of the time. This would not be TKD, which is the only thing I am trying to comment on.

Please see my signature for a response to this. And Judo competition allows no striking, but it is present in the art of Judo. The rules of competition do not define an art.

They tell you a great deal about the art. Judoka are not known for the striking skills they get from Judo.

Your general criticism was: "ITF does not practice standing joint locks until Black Belt". You're willing to say it still holds up even though you don't know what the cirriculum actually is, or if there's one at all?

No, my general criticism was:

"The cirriculum for TKD (WTF/ITF/ATF) simply isn't focused on fighting."
​

Even with a cirriculum that added counter-grapples or hip-throws to drills or step-sparring, that criticism remains. I've supported that with far more than a lack of grappling work. Where is your weapons sparring (have you ever tried your knife/anti-knife work against an FMA practitionr? How does the ITF teach to escape a mount? What's your basic approact to multiple-attackers? How much sparring time do you put into hand work against resisting opponents? How much of your grappling work do you put against resisting opponents? How much time have you spent trying your technique where opponents are allowed to grapple / sweep / attack the limbs?

And that's mostly dealing with training regemine. It's possible for a school teaching TKD to allow all that, though I doubt that the people involved would long practice TKD as a response.

To hit a single criticism, TKD spends way to much time on one leg. Follow the shoulder on any spinning kick (a *really* good mule kick being the occasional exception) and you are behind the kicker. A simple lift-kick up the middle (leg, groin, whatever you connect with works) trumps any slower front kick from the cirriculum. The axe kick is a horrible idea combatively as you are trying to move your foot about 12 feet while standing within arms-reach of your opponent.

The balance is high, the mobility is low, the "blocks" in the cirriculum are horrible combative ideas (hell, they are taught to be done with only one bone in the forearm; I've personally seen the fractures of that bone in TKD play from "light contact with pads"). Realisitically, the counter-grappling skills are not existant (I'll point you at any NHB venue you like. How did TKD fare? How would it have been different "on the street"?). Where *in the official cirriculum* is falling? fighting from the ground? how about just fighting in heavy clothing?

Jerry no disrespect here towards you but you are putting all TKD together please leave Olympic or point sparring out of the mix. traditional TKD teaches joint locks take downs and some weapontry.

And I intend no disrepect towards anyone either, nor towards TKD, but could you please provide a reference or support? What is the "traditional TKD" response to being under the mount? What's their knifework like? How do they deal with a liftkick? Have they abandoned "blocking", turning their backs, and most of the kicking in "olympic TKD"? If so, how are we discussing the same art? If not, how does my commentary not apply?

I don't dislike TKD, but I'm not going to believe it is something it is not because its important to people. If there's a good, combative TKD, I'd love to see it. In my several years in TKD, and more than a decade in martial arts, I have not.

PS. Thanks for the ITF links. I'm not likely to buy anything, but I'm going through the site now.

 

[KyleShort]

To those who replied to my post...you missed my point entirely. Terryl965, if you read my post closer you will see that I do believe TKD and many other arts can and do produce great self defense. The point that I was making is that, as arnisdor noted, the vast majority of TKD schools in America (at least on the west coast where I have experience) do not emphasis hard combat / self defense training.

You're art can even go so far as to teach a plethora of self defense techniques, but as the old adage says, you perform as you practice. If all you ever do is point spar to the protected chest and head, you will not pull out your self defense techniques when the hammer drops. It is conditioned response...reflexes. You might "know" low kicks and joint locks, but there is a difference between knowing and internalizing, ingraining.

Regardless, techniques don't make an art self defense worthy anyway. I know quite a few Hapkidoists that can't fight. My money, in general, would fall to Boxers, Judoka, BJJ, Wrestlers etc. simply because of their traininig methodology.

The funny thing is that I started my training in TKD...got to brown through two different schools...did very well in tournaments...I even used it to defend myself on a few occasions.

 

[bignick]

The sentiment of this response is repeated several times. It would be entirely possible for an instructor to teach the requirement for TKD then ignore it and teach Akido the rest of the time. This would not be TKD, which is the only thing I am trying to comment on.

Why not? You seem to be lumping together all TKD into one category, the WTF alone is a worldwide organization with millions of participants and to say there is uniformity even within one group is preposterous. I can't make general claims about TKD, because I don't represent TKD as a whole, I can only represent what I was taught and how my school works, to do any more would be disingenous.