Why the 9-11 conspiracies won't go away...

[Makalakumu]

Are you basing your entire theory that Oasam Bin Laden has been working for the US goverment on that????

That was a joke, right? You can't seriously be basing the idea that all the tapes that have been released are fakes on things like Osama wearing a watcha and ring and the FBI never mentioned it in their poster! You can't think that Osama would not get out some tape to Al Jezeera or the internet if he was being blamed for something he did not do.

The type of evidence you base this huge theory on is the type of thing that comes from some kid that puts videos on a web site?

Obviously, if you read my posts, that isn't the only thing. And yes, there were multiple denials.

The first public response from Osama bin Laden was read on September 16, 2001. He stated, "I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation," which was broadcast by Qatar's Al-Jazeera satellite channel. ([4], [5], [6]). This denial was broadcast on U.S. news networks and worldwide. The second public response was read on September 28 by Daily Ummat a Pakistani newspaper. He stated "I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. " [7].

Why would OBL say something like this and then make subsequent statements that completely contradict this?

Here is some more info that seems very strange...

When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden’s Most Wanted web page, [Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI] said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.” ... The Muckraker Report attempted to secure a reference to the U.S. government authenticating the Bin Laden “confession video”, to no avail. However, it is conclusive that the Bush Administration and U.S. Congress, along with the dead stream media, played the video as if it was authentic. So why doesn’t the FBI view the “confession video” as hard evidence? [Muckraker Report]

Use your own eyes...

Even Mr. Magoo can find the one that doesn't match. Anyway, from the above, I think that anyone can see that there is some justification to doubt ALL of the tapes, from the translations to the very people in them.

And I would like to point out again, that the two people in the tape that was initially referred too, the recent one where OBL is talking to two of the alleged hijackers, one of those men is alive in Saudi Arabia and the other is not who the FBI claims he is according to the man's own father.

So, who are those people? What did Bin Laden really say to them? Do any of you speak arabic?

 

[Don Roley]

Anyway, from the above, I think that anyone can see that there is some justification to doubt ALL of the tapes, from the translations to the very people in them.

So Osama doesn't exist anymore and all the tapes where he and his orginzation take credit for the attacks are fakes?

FYI- Sept 16th and 28th 2001 was a time when he was denying things because the Taliban was trying to shield him and avoid an invasion. After that didn't work, he took credit for it. That is a simple reason that anyone can understand without a silly conspiracy theory about how everything out there by him for the last few years is a fake. And people do gain weight and such from time to time you know.

Honestly, to think that Osama would not continue to use this plot to frame him and manage to get out a message to people, and that all the tapes and messages from him are fakes for the last few years is just as silly as thinking that aliens are working with the goverment.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Honestly, to think that Osama would not continue to use this plot to frame him and manage to get out a message to people, and that all the tapes and messages from him are fakes for the last few years is just as silly as thinking that aliens are working with the goverment.

Are you trying to tell me the aliens aren't working with the U.S. Government? If so, who are they working with then?

I've made a bit of a hobby out of conspiracy theories, and this one looks like all the rest. Not as interesting even.

Jeff

 

[Don Roley]

Are you trying to tell me the aliens aren't working with the U.S. Government? If so, who are they working with then?

My board of education I think............

 

[SFC JeffJ]

My board of education I think............

That would explain a lot.

Jeff

 

[Makalakumu]

So Osama doesn't exist anymore and all the tapes where he and his orginzation take credit for the attacks are fakes?

I don't know. Maybe. Do you speak Arabic?

FYI- Sept 16th and 28th 2001 was a time when he was denying things because the Taliban was trying to shield him and avoid an invasion. After that didn't work, he took credit for it. That is a simple reason that anyone can understand without a silly conspiracy theory about how everything out there by him for the last few years is a fake.

This is all assumption on your part.

And people do gain weight and such from time to time you know...

If you look at Osama C posted above, the "gaunt" one, you'll see a stark difference. That image is from a tape that was taken five days after the first confession tape according to their "official" chronology. Did OBL change that much in five days?

There are other problems. If you compare facial features and landmarks, they are not the same. See the forensics study published on the Scholar's page. Bin Laden E is clearly not the same person as Bin Laden A-D.

Honestly, to think that Osama would not continue to use this plot to frame him and manage to get out a message to people, and that all the tapes and messages from him are fakes for the last few years is just as silly as thinking that aliens are working with the goverment.

I'm not saying that all of the tapes are fake. I'm saying that there is plenty of reason to doubt all of the tapes authenticity. There is a difference. Some of them could very well be the real Bin Laden. Others, however, are clearly NOT Bin Laden.

And, I won't even get into issues of translation. It's already been shown in the German media that the US is mistranslating the Arabic so that the tapes "say" what we want them to say.

The bottom line is that there is plenty of reason to doubt all of this. That is why it won't go away.

 

[Makalakumu]

Jeff

What stuff are you reading? I would suggest you take a look at the two videos of the presentation I posted earlier.

I wonder if anyone has done that yet...

 

[Don Roley]

I don't know. Maybe. Do you speak Arabic?

Uh, do you?

It seems that you get some pretty dubious sources off of the internet that give you what you want, ignore everything that counters it and try to make it sound like you know more than anyone else. It is kind of an appeal to authority.

But after you try to silence the other side by saying that your sources (like the 'scholars for 9-11 truth) are so well informed that we are fools for even trying to argue with what they say, someone comes along and shows that your exerts are not what they try to say they are.

The authorties you list are silly and the arguments you make are not convincing. And the logic you use- isn't logical.

You have to think that all the tapes are fake and/or Osama is part of the conspiracy or dead. We know he can get tapes to Al-Jezera and onto the internet. If he had no part in 9-11 then neither he nor his subordinates would use images of the attacks as part of their videos. Yet they have. And if these tapes were faked by the goverment, then you can hardly expect him to remain silent about it as he has. He would have gotten messages out that there are fake videos supposably made by his associates and he would at some point would have gotten through.

Trying to point to a lot of nutty web sites run by people who try to sound knowledgable is useless when that simple train of logic is taken into account. There is no way that the goverment could stop him from getting messages out denying fake videos. He has not. The only time he tried denying the attacks was when Afghanistan was trying to avoid being invaded.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Dude. Everybody IS looking at your stuff. We dont buy it.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Uh, do you?

It seems that you get some pretty dubious sources off of the internet that give you what you want, ignore everything that counters it and try to make it sound like you know more than anyone else. It is kind of an appeal to authority.

But after you try to silence the other side by saying that your sources (like the 'scholars for 9-11 truth) are so well informed that we are fools for even trying to argue with what they say, someone comes along and shows that your exerts are not what they try to say they are.

The authorties you list are silly and the arguments you make are not convincing. And the logic you use- isn't logical.

You have to think that all the tapes are fake and/or Osama is part of the conspiracy or dead. We know he can get tapes to Al-Jezera and onto the internet. If he had no part in 9-11 then neither he nor his subordinates would use images of the attacks as part of their videos. Yet they have. And if these tapes were faked by the goverment, then you can hardly expect him to remain silent about it as he has. He would have gotten messages out that there are fake videos supposably made by his associates and he would at some point would have gotten through.

Trying to point to a lot of nutty web sites run by people who try to sound knowledgable is useless when that simple train of logic is taken into account. There is no way that the goverment could stop him from getting messages out denying fake videos. He has not. The only time he tried denying the attacks was when Afghanistan was trying to avoid being invaded.

Like I said before Don, thats the beauty of a good conspiracy. Any evidence to the contrary can just be brushed aside as part of a wider conspiracy. Its self-perpetuating. Thing is, how far can you take it until its just plain ridiculous (well. thats an odd question when you look at the premise isnt it?)? When does a conspiranoid quit? Can he quit?

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Jeff

What stuff are you reading? I would suggest you take a look at the two videos of the presentation I posted earlier.

I wonder if anyone has done that yet...

Yes I did look at the vids, and most of the stuff I've read was about a year ago on varios websites while I've since deleted the bookmarks I had so I can't say which specific ones.

I would be interested in reading any books that have come out on the matter if you could point some out to me.

Jeff

 

[Blotan Hunka]

And even if one of those tapes wasnt Osama. Why jump to the conclusion that the US manufactured it? It could just as easily (and more likely) be explained as Al Quaida (sp?) putting out a propaganda tape.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Part of the appeal of conspiracy theories is that it gives the believer a sense of superiority, as they are "in the know" unlike everyone else.

That's a very powerful motivation.

Jeff

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Part of the appeal of conspiracy theories is that it gives the believer a sense of superiority, as they are "in the know" unlike everyone else.

That's a very powerful motivation.

Jeff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Psychological_origins

According to many psychologists, a person who believes in one conspiracy theory is often a believer in other conspiracy theories and conversely for a person who does not believe in one conspiracy theory there is a lower probability that he, or she, will believe in another one. [9] Psychologists believe that the search for meaningfulness features largely in conspiracism and the development of conspiracy theories. That desire alone may be powerful enough to lead to the initial formulation of the idea[citation needed]. Once cognized, confirmation bias and avoidance of cognitive dissonance may reinforce the belief. In a context where a conspiracy theory has become popular within a social group, communal reinforcement may equally play a part.
Evolutionary psychology may also play a significant role. Paranoid tendencies are associated with an animal's ability to recognize danger. Higher animals attempt to construct mental models of the thought processes of both rivals and predators in order to read their hidden intentions and to predict their future behavior. Such an ability is extremely valuable in sensing and avoiding danger in an animal community. If this danger-sensing ability should begin making false predictions, or be triggered by benign evidence, or otherwise become pathological, the result is paranoid delusions.

Clinical psychology

For relatively rare individuals, an obsessive compulsion to believe, prove or re-tell a conspiracy theory may indicate one or more of several well-understood psychological conditions, and other hypothetical ones: paranoia, denial, schizophrenia, mean world syndrome[12].

 

[Jonathan Randall]

This is nonsense. Anyone whose served a single day in uniform knows that large scale conspiracies are impossible to carry out. Occam's Razor. This does not mean that folks didn't take political advantage of this - but it does mean that an "inside job" is unlikely.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2006/04/19/cstillwell.DTL

The underlying factors likely have more to do with psychology. Indeed, it is often said that conspiracy theories are born out of a sense of powerlessness. In the wake of Sept. 11 and the emergence of the nihilistic threat of Islamic terrorism, feelings of impotence and vulnerability were all too natural. All Americans were affected by such fears. But instead of facing the daunting truth, the Sept. 11 conspiracy theorists chose the path of denial.

Immersed in a political belief system in which the United States (and Israel) is always the bad guy and never the victim, adherents refuse to give credence to any development that does not fit this narrative. So rather than blaming the perpetrators, they fall back on familiar demons. After all, an enemy one can grapple with is much more appealing than the unknown. Such beliefs offer the tantalizing possibility that there's an explanation for a reality that all too often seems incomprehensible.

 

[Makalakumu]

It seems that you get some pretty dubious sources off of the internet that give you what you want, ignore everything that counters it and try to make it sound like you know more than anyone else. It is kind of an appeal to authority.

It's not an appeal to authority. And I find this paragraphy highly ironic.

But after you try to silence the other side by saying that your sources (like the 'scholars for 9-11 truth) are so well informed that we are fools for even trying to argue with what they say, someone comes along and shows that your experts are not what they try to say they are.

Then who are they?

The authorties you list are silly and the arguments you make are not convincing. And the logic you use- isn't logical.

Thanks for your opinion.

You have to think that all the tapes are fake and/or Osama is part of the conspiracy or dead. We know he can get tapes to Al-Jezera and onto the internet. If he had no part in 9-11 then neither he nor his subordinates would use images of the attacks as part of their videos. Yet they have. And if these tapes were faked by the goverment, then you can hardly expect him to remain silent about it as he has. He would have gotten messages out that there are fake videos supposably made by his associates and he would at some point would have gotten through.

This is another assumption on your part. It doesn't have to go down like that at all...

Trying to point to a lot of nutty web sites run by people who try to sound knowledgable is useless when that simple train of logic is taken into account. There is no way that the goverment could stop him from getting messages out denying fake videos. He has not. The only time he tried denying the attacks was when Afghanistan was trying to avoid being invaded.

This is another assumption on your part. Nobody really knows why OBL would deny involvement. However, that denial presents problems to the official conspiracy theory.

 

[Makalakumu]

And even if one of those tapes wasnt Osama. Why jump to the conclusion that the US manufactured it? It could just as easily (and more likely) be explained as Al Quaida (sp?) putting out a propaganda tape.

Qui-bono. That's why. But, you could be right, too. Who knows.

 

[Makalakumu]

Like I said before Don, thats the beauty of a good conspiracy. Any evidence to the contrary can just be brushed aside as part of a wider conspiracy. Its self-perpetuating. Thing is, how far can you take it until its just plain ridiculous (well. thats an odd question when you look at the premise isnt it?)? When does a conspiranoid quit? Can he quit?

Did you know that the government's version of events is a conspiracy theory? It states that 19 Arab hijackers, using box cutters, took control of four air craft and managed to crash three of them into some of the most heavily defended targets in our country. This is despite the trillions of dollars we spent to defend them.

And, like any conspiracy theory, any evidence to the contrary can just be brushed aside as part of a wider conspiracy (terrorist recruiters). It's self-perpetuating. Thing is, how far can you take it until its just plain ridiculous.

Pretty dang far, if you look at the NIST report and all of the problems that exist with that.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Trillions of dollars to defend the trade centers? What all the secret rocket launchers on NYC rooftops and satellite death rays???
Why couldnt a hijacker take over a plane and crash it into a bldg? Its a simple extension of a suicide bomber in a truck driving into a bldg and detonating...that sound familiar to you?? Your confusing "conspiracy to commit a crime"; a legal term with "conspiracy theory" where you get to disbelieve any fact contrary to what you want to believe.