Why some people still don't want to wear mask?

[JowGaWolf]

These are only a couple articles, out of no telling how many... can't find them on google, but you can find them on duckduckgo and a couple other search engines. There is lots more coming out about this specific subject recently. I find info about details on the CDC website too, and then it disappears.

Lots of people have a lot to say about the subject, but aren't doing the digging to find the info. Admittedly, it's hard to find.

You are right a lot of people don't dig around it. But it helps to research this stuff. There have been times where I have researched something and misunderstood what I was reading. I don't think it was due to a lack of intelligence. As far as I know it could have been my mood influencing my perception of what I was reading. Or it could have been me just reading information without connecting it. Like Steve's little math game. I found that it was easy to understand when I read it with a business perspective than a math problem. Reading it as a math problem got me into all sorts of trouble.

 

[JowGaWolf]

These are only a couple articles, out of no telling how many... can't find them on google, but you can find them on duckduckgo and a couple other search engines. There is lots more coming out about this specific subject recently. I find info about details on the CDC website too, and then it disappears.

Lots of people have a lot to say about the subject, but aren't doing the digging to find the info. Admittedly, it's hard to find.

Who told the labs to run 40 cycles instead of the 30 cycles recommend by the designers of the test?

I wish I would have seen this earlier. Because I came across an article where it was said that the testing manufacturers determine the cycle threshold.

 

[Steve]

You are right a lot of people don't dig around it. But it helps to research this stuff. There have been times where I have researched something and misunderstood what I was reading. I don't think it was due to a lack of intelligence. As far as I know it could have been my mood influencing my perception of what I was reading. Or it could have been me just reading information without connecting it. Like Steve's little math game. I found that it was easy to understand when I read it with a business perspective than a math problem. Reading it as a math problem got me into all sorts of trouble.

Why's it gotta be a "little" math game?

 

[EdwardA]

I wish I would have seen this earlier. Because I came across an article where it was said that the testing manufacturers determine the cycle threshold.

Why would labs all over the country run up to 50 cycles until they found something.... anything? It costs more money and takes more time. The scientists that designed the test specified 20-30 cycles specifically to avoid errors.

By the way, I agree. Research is time consuming...I get tired of it too. My biggest problem is loosing links to this stuff. That's frustrating.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why's it gotta be a "little" math game?

That thing had me thinking I was crazy lol. It gave me some insight on how may brain is wired. When I looked at it as a math problem, I felt the need to use all the numbers. When I looked at it as a business transaction, I only took what I needed. When I looked at it as a math problem, I felt like I was wrong and the numbers were right. When I looked at it as a business transaction. I was like "dude your math is off. How did you get that?"


I enjoyed it though. It highlighted something about me that I was unaware of, after which I felt the urge to send you some Woodland Candy. lol

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why would labs all over the country run up to 50 cycles until they found something.... anything? It costs more money and takes more time. The scientists that designed the test specified 20-30 cycles specifically to avoid errors.

I didn't see anything about 50 cycles. I also couldn't tell you why they would run them that high. They may have been collecting data. For example, at which range is it present and at which range does it find nothing. If you are providing data to the manufacturers who are developing the test, then that information would be vital to developing an accurate testing system. A doctor may want to know that as well in hope that they can get an early jump on it."

But that's just me guessing based off the Covid-19 testing manual I found online. Stuff gets confusing: https://www.fda.gov/media/138150/download


But I found your answer source: https://www.fda.gov/media/134922/download

35 CDC-006-00019, Revision: 05 CDC/DDID/NCIRD/ Division of Viral Diseases Effective: 07/13/2020. If any of the above controls do not exhibit the expected performance as described, the assay may have been set up and/or executed improperly, or reagent or equipment malfunction could have occurred. Invalidate the run and re-test.RNase P (Extraction Control) All clinical samples should exhibit fluorescence growth curves in the RNase P reaction that cross the threshold line within 40.00 cycles (< 40.00 Ct), thus indicating the presence of the human RNase P gene.

Failure to detect RNase P in any clinical specimens may indicate:
−Improper extraction of nucleic acid from clinical materials resulting in loss of RNA and/or RNA degradation.
−Absence of sufficient human cellular material due to poor collection or loss of specimen integrity.
−Improper assay set up and execution.
−Reagent or equipment malfunction.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I also found where the Manufacturers set the cycle. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/29/health/coronavirus-testing.html
"
The Food and Drug Administration said in an emailed statement that it does not specify the cycle threshold ranges used to determine who is positive, and that “commercial manufacturers and laboratories set their own.”

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said it is examining the use of cycle threshold measures “for policy decisions.” The agency said it would need to collaborate with the F.D.A. and with device manufacturers to ensure the measures “can be used properly and with assurance that we know what they mean.”

The C.D.C.’s own calculations suggest that it is extremely difficult to detect any live virus in a sample above a threshold of 33 cycles. Officials at some state labs said the C.D.C. had not asked them to note threshold values or to share them with contact-tracing organizations.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Some more information but I didn't read it.
The importance of cycle threshold values in interpreting molecular tests for SARS-CoV-2
The importance of cycle threshold values in interpreting molecular tests for SARS-CoV-2

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why would labs all over the country run up to 50 cycles until they found something.... anything? It costs more money and takes more time. The scientists that designed the test specified 20-30 cycles specifically to avoid errors.

By the way, I agree. Research is time consuming...I get tired of it too. My biggest problem is loosing links to this stuff. That's frustrating.

I bookmark mine, but I don't organize it so it looks like trash. I'll probably never look at that site again. lol

 

[EdwardA]

I bookmark mine, but I don't organize it so it looks like trash. I'll probably never look at that site again. lol

I email some links to myself, and save some on my laptop....I can't use my laptop much at night because I'm off-grid and rely on batteries at night. I've got 500 links to various things I'm researching...and don't organize them as well as I should. Gee, I've still got a hundred links from putting a new engine and trans in my Acura last winter. Those are well organized.

 

[EdwardA]

I also found where the Manufacturers set the cycle. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/29/health/coronavirus-testing.html
"
The Food and Drug Administration said in an emailed statement that it does not specify the cycle threshold ranges used to determine who is positive, and that “commercial manufacturers and laboratories set their own.”

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said it is examining the use of cycle threshold measures “for policy decisions.” The agency said it would need to collaborate with the F.D.A. and with device manufacturers to ensure the measures “can be used properly and with assurance that we know what they mean.”

The C.D.C.’s own calculations suggest that it is extremely difficult to detect any live virus in a sample above a threshold of 33 cycles. Officials at some state labs said the C.D.C. had not asked them to note threshold values or to share them with contact-tracing organizations.

Watch in the next few weeks, how much of a blame game it becomes. The manufacturers are completely regulated by the cdc and fda. There's a lot more of this issue being examined right now. I've seen articles from the medical community saying that up to 90% of the tests may have been effected. That's only a worse case senario, because it'll take all lot of time before they can come to a conclusion....if ever. It's not like they can redo the tests.

There was a network of doctors that tried to bring up both, the testing and death certificate issues about 4 months ago. The press wouldn't give them any air time, so they put it on youtube. Google deleted their account. Won't see any of this stuff on TV news.

 

[jobo]

I guess my computer is broken
View attachment 23122

Finally. And it's not irrelevant. It's a FACT. 2+2=4. If you are doing measurements of any type, then the logic 2+2=10 is going cause you a lot problems. In a lot of areas. That's why I told you FACTS matter. You can believe 2+2=10 all day long. You can't get the entire world to believe it and the the only thing they will be is Wrong.

The whole world can believe in the Flat Earth Model all they want, but when they start calculating other things then what they will discover is just a lot of wrong and impossibilities. Facts Matter.

No matter what type of math that you do. 2+2=4. Such simple things are the foundation of advance mathematics. If 2+2 doesn't = 4 then there's a lot of advanced math and calculations that are going to be screwed.

0l

Finally. And it's not irrelevant. It's a FACT. 2+2=4. If you are doing measurements of any type, then the logic 2+2=10 is going cause you a lot problems. In a lot of areas. That's why I told you FACTS matter. You can believe 2+2=10 all day long. You can't get the entire world to believe it and the the only thing they will be is Wrong.

The whole world can believe in the Flat Earth Model all they want, but when they start calculating other things then what they will discover is just a lot of wrong and impossibilities. Facts Matter.

No matter what type of math that you do. 2+2=4. Such simple things are the foundation of advance mathematics. If 2+2 doesn't = 4 then there's a lot of advanced math and calculations that are going to be screwed.

im not the idiot whisperer, if you want to be bady miss informed carry on

 

[dvcochran]

Not really. Again you are suggesting that there is an onus on experts is to convince idiots.

Unfortunately the idiots don't make that possible.

Sorry can you please explain a concept that took you 4 years of specialized training to understand in about ten seconds?

I just have a really short attention span.



So for example.

"To come up with a proof of such a seemingly simple fact as 2+2=4" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">2+2=42+2=4, we need a set of axioms to start with, and we need precise definitions of all the terms we are using. Depending on what set of axioms you start with, proving that 2+2=4" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">2+2=42+2=4, and that no other natural number can equal 2+2" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">2+22+2 may be either very simple or surprisingly difficult. For example in Russell and Whitehead's Principia, it famously took over 300 pages of work before they could prove that 1+1=2" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">1+1=21+1=2. They started with a very sparse set of axioms though.

The most common set of axioms for the natural numbers are the Peano Axioms.

They are

1. 0" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">00 is a natural number.
2. For every natural number x" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">xx, x=x" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">x=xx=x.
3. For all natural numbers x" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">xx and y" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">yy, if x=y" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">x=yx=y, then y=x" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">y=xy=x.
4. For all natural numbers x" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">xx, y" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">yy, and z" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">zz, if x=y" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">x=yx=y and y=z" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">y=zy=z, then x=z" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">x=zx=z.
5. For all a" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">aa and b" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">bb, if a" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">aa is a natural number, and a=b" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">a=ba=b, then b" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">bb is a natural number.
6. For every natural number n" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">nn, S(n)" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">S(n)S(n) is a natural number.
7. For every natural number n" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">nn, S(n)=0" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">S(n)=0S(n)=0 is false.
8. For all natural numbers m" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">mm and n" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">nn, if S(m)=S(n)" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">S(m)=S(n)S(m)=S(n) then m=n" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">m=nm=n.
9. If K" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">KK is a set such that 0&#x2208;K" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">0∈K0∈K, and for every natural number n" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">nn, n&#x2208;K" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">n∈Kn∈K implies that S(n)&#x2208;K" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">S(n)∈KS(n)∈K, then K" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">KK contains all natural numbers.

Here S" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">SS is the successor function, it takes each natural number to its successor. This might seem like a complicated mess compared to the simplicity of natural numbers, but we need to be precise. We need to carefully construct the axioms so that no contradiction can be derived from them, and so they encapsulate what we understand to be the natural numbers. We want to be able to prove interesting statements about the natural numbers from them. Note that the axioms contain undefined terms. The axioms don't need to state what the terms mean, only what they do.

The following definitions are commonly used within this axiomatization. They are the definitions from Peano's original paper (An English translation is available in the book From Frege to Gödel), modified to start at 0" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">00 instead of 1" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">11.

1" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">11 is defined as S(0)" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">S(0)S(0), 2" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">22 is defined as S(1)" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">S(1)S(1), 3" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">33 is defined as S(2)" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">S(2)S(2), and 4" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">44 is defined as S(3)" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">S(3)S(3). Addition is defined recursively as follows.


a+0=a" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; font-size: 15px; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">a+0=aa+0=a
a+S(b)=S(a+b)" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; font-size: 15px; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">a+S(b)=S(a+b)a+S(b)=S(a+b)
.


Thus


2+2=2+S(1)=S(2+1)=S(2+S(0))=S(S(2+0))=S(S(2))=S(3)=4" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; font-size: 15px; vertical-align: baseline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative; display: table-cell !important; width: 10000em !important;">2+2=2+S(1)=S(2+1)=S(2+S(0))=S(S(2+0))=S(S(2))=S(3)=42+2=2+S(1)=S(2+1)=S(2+S(0))=S(S(2+0))=S(S(2))=S(3)=4


proving that 2+2=4" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">2+2=42+2=4.

This is the unique value of 2+2" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">2+22+2 by axiom 4.

If x=2+2" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">x=2+2x=2+2 and 2+2=4" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">2+2=42+2=4, then x=4" role="presentation" style="box-sizing: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-variant: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: normal; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: inline; word-spacing: normal; overflow-wrap: normal; white-space: nowrap; float: none; direction: ltr; max-width: none; max-height: none; min-width: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">x=4x=4."

Your own codex or base packet?

 

[dvcochran]

Yeah. What can I say. I could have gone into more specifics and exceptions. That just seemed too complicated. Law is already complex enough as it is. I try to keep it as simple as possible. There's a disagreement on 2+2=4, so I fear being more accurate about a discussion on law would be too much lol.

Tell your wife that I suffered 2 years of law classes with an attorney and I hated every minute of it. Every answer my professor had was a legal one and it was like she didn't have feelings. She was just straight to the point and very detailed. If the students had to give a definition or explain a case and the ruling (hated that too) then nothing less than detailed answer was accepted. It was like 2 years of being wrong, assumptions weren't allowed, emotions weren't allowed. So I'm happy that she could have to good chuckle.

My wife a PD for the absolute minimum time required for TN. Two years if memory serves. Even in that short amount of time she has some sad stories about how the 'law' was/is manipulated. She is a specialized attorney doing contract and governmental law.
She has made a similar comment to yours that legal definition is supposed to be absolute. Then you find out 98% of written law is done by defense attorney's. The reason? There is a loophole in almost every established law by design.

 

[dvcochran]

It would be nice then I could argue with a lawyer lol. But unfortunately simple doesn't cover all necessary aspect of a law. Make a simple law and the next thing that happens are "What abouts?" and "What ifs" It's like a building a car with a person with never ending ideas of "wouldn't it be cool if we added..."

Well, you just described the world I live in. We literally have 'What If' and 'If Then' meetings, both with the client(s) and amongst ourselves. It can get a bit obsessive but is necessary, especially when building a totally new product.
Damn hard to catch everything on the first iteration.

An example is the week I just had. We started up a sortation line that scans a barcode and another tag on a non-uniform and shiny part that weighs about 65lbs. The customer had been doing the scan by hands and had encountered strains and minor injuries so needed to automate the process.
I met with the engineering group and production group 3 or 4 times to talk through the process and options on how to automate. Then spent over 60 hours watching the production operation to try to determine all the preventable issues. Plus it was a planned obsolescence project.
We had to add a 3-axis robot. The base was built into the line and the code was already there. The customer had hoped we could locate the barcode without it but not possible to do reliably enough to pass certification. It was the first time in a long time we had to PPAT 3 times and certify twice. Just to be certain we went back yesterday and re-ran all the testing phases to satisfy everyone, including myself.
That part was on my nickel. Four engineers, two techs, 10 hours each at overtime pay. You can do the math.

A Big part of the 'what if' of a project like this one is not being too specific about the 'what ifs' and building in modular flexibility. Had we not built in the base for the added robot we would have had a BIG problem on our hands. And it was essentially a case of the customer being certain "we can do it this way" and me having to convince them that I did not think so and that we must include the base and programing in the build.

The 'what ifs' usually end at a practical and financial point.

 

[dvcochran]

well that doesnt prove anything, it totally dependent on the coubrobg system you use

growing up we use based 12 for money and distance and base 16 for weight,

the americand still do for weight and distance

in base two its 0100, in base 3 its 11, in base 4 its 10. in base 16 its one quarter or .25 as well as 4, but all answers are correct unless the question specifies which units should be used for the answer

it only becomes a fact if you prefix it with "" in the base 10 system"

so as i said that fact is total dependent on interpretation

It would definitely be a better and easier world if we all used the same standardized units.

 

[jobo]

It would definitely be a better and easier world if we all used the same standardized units.

its nearly 50 years sibce the uk went metric, but it still runs substantially on imperial units
ask anyone what fuel economoy they get from there car and they answer almost with out exception in miles per gallon

or how tall they are or what they weigh or how long their todger is and they reply in imperial

then we have really bizare hybrids, wood screws are metric in diamiter but imperial in lengh as for some reason are carpets, coke is in metric beer in pints, tryibg to buy a pint of coke is throught with difficulty.

can i have a pint if coke please,

returns with class of coke

no a pint of coke

that is a pint of coje
.no its not its a half ltre class, i want a pint

bar staff look deeply confused

 

[dvcochran]

CB Jones
All statements above are true.
True, Sweden death total is 5, 835, that is less than 10,000. Total population 10,110,577.
True, They also did not have the economic fallout, because they did very little to stop the spread of the virus.

U.S is number 10 in the world for deaths per million, 588. in other words there are over 200 countries doing better than us.
Sweden is number 11 in the world for deaths per million, 581. Total deaths 5,835 in country with 10,110,577 total population.
Tiawan is 187 in the world for deaths per million, 0.3. Total deaths 7 in country with 23,824,604 total population. Twice the population of Sweden.

Looking at the numbers I prefer the Tiawan Model.

Bruce7, I didn't check the numbers but they look right from memory. This is where the critical thinking has to take over. Factoring in the per capita values, average age, health system, etc... Sadly, I do believe there are political factors at play in our country as well.

 

[dvcochran]

Sure, but you also said that they did not experience the economic fallout. Based on the context of your post (whether you intended it or not), it sounded very much as though you were suggesting some kind of causal relationship between avoiding shutting down and the economy. (i.e., "Sure, more people died, but on the bright side, because they didn't shut down they didn't experience the same level of economic fallout.") However, there does NOT appear to be a causal relationship between their economic resilience and their decision to avoid shutting down, because the two neighboring countries (Denmark and Norway) did shut down, and had similar economic impact without the unneeded deaths.

Simply put, yes, they did make mistakes and people died who didn't need to. AND it doesn't appear so far that their economy benefited from it.

I agree, but especially with the amount of flux and unknowns early on with the virus it is very easy to pop shots, which is what a lot here are doing. Hindsight is always 20/20.
There is still a ton of flux and unknown so I think it is fair to say no one knows for sure what to do.

 

[dvcochran]

That makes sense and it sounds like something Dr. Fauci would say.

The whole face shield thing makes me think. "might as well have some fun with it". Time to suit up lol. Make it out of some anti-viral materials, add a little ac and a filter, some heads up displays, and an audo /mic system and you'll be all set. lol

Have you seen any of the Purge movies? Makes me think of them. And how we are headed for that kind of anarchy.