Why is their so much disrespect for Karate? And what can we do to stop it?

[Kung Fu Wang]

LOL, no. Only someone who lacks real fighting experience would say this. A real fight never goes the way a sparring session does.

If your kwoon has you guys donning MMA gloves and getting into the cage, then I'll give you that. Anything short of that isn't gonna cut the mustard.

MMA is not popular in Taiwan. But Sanda/Sanshou is popular there. This is my guys did in Taiwan (2006).

 

[jobo]

Yeah, please show me a sparring session where people are getting their noses broken and their teeth knocked out by their opponents on purpose.

teeth usually survived due to gum shields, but people getting knock out,knocked over or otherwise hurt are not uncommon in many arts, hell I've knocked a few over myself.

the difference between sparing and a contest is largly a decision for the participants to make

 

[Urban Trekker]

MMA is not popular in Taiwan. But Sanda/Sanshou is popular there. This is my guys did in Taiwan (2006).

Where's their sparring gear? Looks like an actual match to me.

 

[Urban Trekker]

teeth usually survived due to gum shields, but people getting knock out,knocked over or otherwise hurt are not uncommon in many arts, hell I've knocked a few over myself.

the difference between sparing and a contest is largly a decision for the participants to make

Yeah, I edited out the teeth thing in my previous comment as I was typing faster than I was thinking.

 

[jobo]

Where's their sparring gear? Looks like an actual match to me.

do you need gear to spar, ? that's an assumption that meets your opinion that sparing is nothing like fighting as they wear gear and if they are not wearing gear they are not sparring,

circular logic

 

[Urban Trekker]

do you need gear to spar, ? that's an assumption that meets your opinion that sparing is nothing like fighting as they wear gear and if they are not wearing gear they are not sparring,

circular logic

From Dictionary.com:

spar [spahr ]
verb (used without object), sparred, spar·ring.
1 (of boxers) to make the motions of attack and defense with the arms and fists, especially as a part of training.
2 to box, especially with light blows.
3 to strike or attack with the feet or spurs, as gamecocks do.
4 to bandy words; dispute

noun
5 a motion of sparring.
6 a boxing match

The people in those videos were either legit trying to KO each other at worst, or knowingly proceeding in such a way that could lead to a KO at best. Maybe they don't need sparring gear, but what they were doing is not consistent with the definition of sparring.

 

[jobo]

From Dictionary.com:



The people in those videos were either legit trying to KO each other at worst, or knowingly proceeding in such a way that could lead to a KO at best. Maybe they don't need sparring gear, but what they were doing is not consistent with the definition of sparring.

yes but that's what sparing can be, it only you that wants to put a play fight defintion on it as it fits your view

in championship boxing for instance sparring is what they do to prepare for a contest, they arnt gently tapping each other, it would be pointless in the extreme if they were

the only difference between sparring and the contest is sparring doesnt get them a belt.

when I spar with a couple of lads at the dojo, the rules are simple ,move your head or get knocked over

 

[Urban Trekker]

the only difference between sparring and the contest is sparring doesnt get them a belt.

So you're saying that all non-title matches are sparring? Two top-ranked contenders fighting in a match that counts toward their fighting record is considered "sparring?"

 

[jobo]

So you're saying that all non-title matches are sparring? Two top-ranked contenders fighting in a match that counts toward their fighting record is considered "sparring?"

that's really not what I said, I'm not at all sure how you came to that interpretation, but if your going to play silly buggers and delibratly miss understand me, il be succinct and clear and do the same back as you clearly dont want an open exchange of ideas

sparring has the intensity that is agreed by the participants or the club, thats the only limit

both of those, not withstanding, people who are training for fights at a level where they can afford to hire top fighters to spar with them are sparring at the same intensity as they exspect the fight to have, that's why they pay them a lot of money to do so

for the rest of us it not that easy to find a volunteer who will let you try and knock them out well not in tma anyway

 

[Urban Trekker]

that's really not what I said, I'm not at all sure how you came to that interpretation, but if your going to play silly buggers and delibratly miss understand me, il be succinct and clear and do the same back as you clearly dont want an open exchange of ideas

I'm not trying to misunderstand you. You said that the distinguishing factor is whether or not a belt is on the line. I was giving you a chance to revise what you said.

When I hear "sparring," in the case of TMA, I'm thinking of kumite at the dojo or equivalent in other TMA. So when I say that training alone (including sparring) with no real fighting experience will do one very little good against an experienced untrained fighter, that's what I'm talking about.

 

[jobo]

I'm not trying to misunderstand you. You said that the distinguishing factor is whether or not a belt is on the line. I was giving you a chance to revise what you said.

When I hear "sparring," in the case of TMA, I'm thinking of kumite at the dojo or equivalent in other TMA. So when I say that training alone (including sparring) with no real fighting experience will do one very little good against an experienced untrained fighter, that's what I'm talking about.

I said the distinguishing factor in a belt fight between sparring and contest is the belt, that clear I mentioned no other level of contests

you seem to be as bad as the mma fan boys at having an extremly norrow view of what tma can be like,

I've been at it on and off for 45 years and I've only seen a tiny fraction of all the tma,schools in the world, it really impossible to say what goes on there,, the only ones I've stuck around are the ones who take fighting seriously, as that my bag,

what you imagine when you hear sparring, in no way effects the reality of what sparring is done.

it has changed from the 70s and 80s but that societal change rather than any systematic issue with tma, and mma has channelled off a lot of the hard men, we have about 30 members and only two of them will let me try and knock them out, three of us are getting more out of the class than the other 27, but that's their choice

 

[Urban Trekker]

I said the distinguishing factor in a belt fight between sparring and contest is the belt, that clear I mentioned no other level of contests

When you just say the belt and leave it at that, the implication is that the level of contest doesn't matter.

you seem to be as bad as the mma fan boys at having an extremly norrow view of what tma can be like

I'm not downing TMA, nor am I uplifting MMA at the expense of TMA. My point from the beginning is that training in TMA is far more valuable to someone with real experience than to someone with none. That should be common sense.

I'm not even talking about MMA in the first place. I merely mentioned the gloves and the cage.

The guy with experience who has trained in TMA would be the guy that I'd put against in a one-on-one fight with an outlaw biker. But my money say the guy who's worn the red or blue pads at the dojo for ten years and has never had to lay a hand on anyone outside of the dojo in his life would get eaten alive by that same outlaw biker.

 

[jobo]

When you just say the belt and leave it at that, the implication is that the level of contest doesn't matter.



I'm not downing TMA, nor am I uplifting MMA at the expense of TMA. My point from the beginning is that training in TMA is far more valuable to someone with real experience than to someone with none. That should be common sense.

I'm not even talking about MMA in the first place. I merely mentioned the gloves and the cage.

The guy with experience who has trained in TMA would be the guy that I'd put against in a one-on-one fight with an outlaw biker. But my money say the guy who's worn the red or blue pads at the dojo for ten years and has never had to lay a hand on anyone outside of the dojo in his life would get eaten alive by that same outlaw biker.

this is drivel mate, have you ever fought one on one with an outlaw biker, I have more than once when I was an out law biker and before, which is how I was asked to join, they are really not that tough on there own

your building strawman opponents, another favourite of the mma boys.

let's be clear, the question is can someone be trained to be a good fighter in a club having little to non real world fights, yes of course they can

you can tell the lots of real world fight guys in the pub, all flat noses and brain damage, I'm scared of the blokes that did that to them, not them

 

[Urban Trekker]

this is drivel mate, have you ever fought one on one with an outlaw biker, I have more than once when I was an out law biker and before, which is how I was asked to join, they are really not that tough on there own

From the sound of it, you fought outlaw bikers as someone with both training and experience.

your building strawman opponents, another favourite of the mma boys.

Nope, I'm quoting you. You're the one painting me as an MMA fanboy. I don't even watch MMA.

let's be clear, the question is can someone be trained to be a good fighter in a club having little to non real world fights, yes of course they can

I told you, I don't know a single person whose first ever real fight took place as an adult, much less after training in TMA for 5 to 10 years. Do you?

If someone has reached adulthood without ever having engaged in a real fight, it's likely because they've avoided fights their whole lives (even in cases where it was against their best interest to avoid them) and they aren't likely to change that.

you can tell the lots of real world fight guys in the pub, all flat noses and brain damage, I'm scared of the blokes that did that to them, not them

Yeah, but you have no idea what those guys at the pub did to the guys that flattened their noses. That's what you need to think about.

 

[jobo]

From the sound of it, you fought outlaw bikers as someone with both training and experience.



Nope, I'm quoting you. You're the one painting me as an MMA fanboy. I don't even watch MMA.



I told you, I don't know a single person whose first ever real fight took place as an adult, much less after training in TMA for 5 to 10 years. Do you?

If someone has reached adulthood without ever having engaged in a real fight, it's likely because they've avoided fights their whole lives (even in cases where it was against their best interest to avoid them) and they aren't likely to change that.



Yeah, but you have no idea what those guys at the pub did to the guys that flattened their noses. That's what you need to think about.

it's a nonsensical argument, childhood fights dont count as they are children, any exsperiance you have isnt going to help against a grown man of 250lbs

there also a differance between being in fightsthat are reasonably fair contests and being in fights unwillingly and being beaten up a lot, they really doesnt help at all

so no few people have got to adult hood with out a fight of some type, but that doesnt support your point at all, as the tma peole will also have had real world exsperiance of violence, childhood can be very violent

 

[Urban Trekker]

it's a nonsensical argument, childhood fights dont count as they are children, any exsperiance you have isnt going to help against a grown man of 250lbs

What are you classifying as "childhood?" Anyone below the age of 18 (isn't it 16 in the UK)? I have fought and beaten a man in his 30's when I was 14 years old, and I know others who have done the same as young as 12. There was even a video of Katt Williams getting beaten up by a 12 year old that went viral a few years ago. Are you counting high school students as "children?" Because people are usually still in that high school mentality for the first few years after graduating. Fights happen on college campuses between people who are adults by any definition.

there also a differance between being in fightsthat are reasonably fair contests and being in fights unwillingly and being beaten up a lot, they really doesnt help at all

As a I told Kung Fu Wang, if by "sparring," he means what's in the videos he posted, then yeah, I'll put them against an experienced untrained fighter. But I won't do the same for someone who has only done sparring by the dictionary definition of it, which describes the typical kumite at a karate dojo or equivalent elsewhere.

so no few people have got to adult hood with out a fight of some type, but that doesnt support your point at all, as the tma peole will also have had real world exsperiance of violence, childhood can be very violent

That's a very general statement. Do all TMA'ists have real fighting experience? No. Do most? I don't know. Do some? Without a doubt.

 

[jobo]

What are you classifying as "childhood?" Anyone below the age of 18 (isn't it 16 in the UK)? I have fought and beaten a man in his 30's when I was 14 years old, and I know others who have done the same as young as 12. There was even a video of Katt Williams getting beaten up by a 12 year old that went viral a few years ago. Are you counting high school students as "children?" Because people are usually still in that high school mentality for the first few years after graduating. Fights happen on college campuses between people who are adults by any definition.



As a I told Kung Fu Wang, if by "sparring," he means what's in the videos he posted, then yeah, I'll put them against an experienced untrained fighter. But I won't do the same for someone who has only done sparring by the dictionary definition of it, which describes the typical kumite at a karate dojo or equivalent elsewhere.



That's a very general statement. Do all TMA'ists have real fighting experience? No. Do most? I don't know. Do some? Without a doubt.

your arguing against your s4lf now, you said that all children have been in fights,as ma were once children, that includes them, I dont know if it's most or all, I was following your lead, but ok most children, I still dont know that that is true, do you have any evevidence? if so that then means most ma have fight exsperiance, that still doesnt support your point

which means your making up evidence that prooves you wrong, which is both sad and unfortunate

 

[Urban Trekker]

your arguing against your s4lf now,

Okay, let's see.

you said that all children have been in fights,

No I didn't. This is what I said: "If someone has reached adulthood without ever having engaged in a real fight, it's likely because they've avoided fights their whole lives (even in cases where it was against their best interest to avoid them) and they aren't likely to change that."

as ma were once children, that includes them, I dont know if it's most or all, I was following your lead, but ok most children, that then means most ma have fight exsperiance

I never said that "most" people have fought when they were children either. If I did, please quote me.

 

[jobo]

Okay, let's see.



No I didn't. This is what I said: "If someone has reached adulthood without ever having engaged in a real fight, it's likely because they've avoided fights their whole lives (even in cases where it was against their best interest to avoid them) and they aren't likely to change that."



I never said that "most" people have fought when they were children either. If I did, please quote me.

no you said you knew of no one who had reached adulthood with out being a first fight

you said it, you find it, I'm not your keeper

 

[Urban Trekker]

no you said you knew of no one who had reached adulthood with out being a first fight

No, this is what I said: "I told you, I don't know a single person whose first ever real fight took place as an adult..."

Let me rephrase that, since you're having trouble understanding: someone who has only fought as an adult, but never as a child. I don't know any such people. Is that better?

you said it, you find it, I'm not your keeper

That's not how it works. If you're going to accuse me of something, then it's your responsibility to prove it. Don't want the responsibility? Then don't make the accusation.