Why is their so much disrespect for Karate? And what can we do to stop it?

[Flying Crane]

I told you, I don't know a single person whose first ever real fight took place as an adult, much less after training in TMA for 5 to 10 years. Do you?

Oh well, allow me to introduce myself. Since I’ve just had my 50th birthday I do consider myself an adult, and I’ve been training in traditional martial arts since 1984, so that’s a fair bit longer than the 5-10 years that you reference. I’m actually still eagerly anticipating my first real fight. Wondering how it will turn out. I’ve simply found it rather easy to get through life without getting into fights. Somehow the bad guys just don’t seem to be hiding behind every bush, waiting to steal my lunch money.

If someone has reached adulthood without ever having engaged in a real fight, it's likely because they've avoided fights their whole lives (even in cases where it was against their best interest to avoid them) and they aren't likely to change that.

Or it just really isn’t necessary.

 

[Tez3]

Sorry for OT but: "Antifa" is so wide term that many different social phenomenons and groups fit into this. And I am pretty sure I know way better than you what and who was Antifa 25-30 years ago and what and who is now in central Europe.

I'm pretty sure you don't actually know better than I.
I'm in my late 60s, my mother was Dutch, the only survivor of her family from the camps, I'm British, ex military specialising in terrorism and terrorist groups, something that continued in my civilian job with the Ministry of Defence, I lived in what was West Germany 30 years ago and still have many contacts and colleagues across Europe and the Middle East. 'Antifa' was not a thing 25-30 years ago.

 

[Anarax]

This is what I said: "If someone has reached adulthood without ever having engaged in a real fight, it's likely because they've avoided fights their whole lives (even in cases where it was against their best interest to avoid them) and they aren't likely to change that."

Could you please provide examples of "even in cases where it was against their best interest to avoid them" and your definition of a "real fight"?

 

[Urban Trekker]

Could you please provide examples of "even in cases where it was against their best interest to avoid them" and your definition of a "real fight"?

No

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No

As expected.

 

[Hanzou]

You really can't stop it. Karate is simply one of those martial arts that attempt to maintain tradition in a world that pushes for modernity and fact finding. Just like the majority of people around the world are beginning to disfavor religion and adopt a secular view of their world, people are also beginning to lose favor towards traditional martial arts that rely more on mysticism and legends than applicability.

 

[Urban Trekker]

You really can't stop it. Karate is simply one of those martial arts that attempt to maintain tradition in a world that pushes for modernity and fact finding. Just like the majority of people around the world are beginning to disfavor religion and adopt a secular view of their world, people are also beginning to lose favor towards traditional martial arts that rely more on mysticism and legends than applicability.

I think there are several factors that took place over time:

1. For a time, the word "karate" was synonymous with almost every Far East Asian martial art. Seems like this would increase people's perception of karate as "generic" over time.

2. I remember Tae Kwon Do beginning to make a name for itself and take off in the early 90's. In my observation, it eventually surpassed karate in popularity, and karate was left behind.

3. If we set aside the classic movies, like the Karate Kid series and Bloodsport, karate movies from the 80's and early 90's just didn't age very well. The Karate Kid series and Bloodsport may not even exceptions. What keeps these movies enjoyable might be the 80's pop culture thing in the case of the former, and the "so bad it's good" factor in the case of the latter. The decline in popularity of these movies likely meant that there was less karate in the media to pique the interests of young people who may have otherwise been interested.

I don't point the finger at MMA. It was kept behind a paywall in its early years (pay-per-view), so most of us couldn't watch it. I think most people probably assumed that it was all karate and kung fu.

 

[Hanzou]

I think there are several factors that took place over time:

1. For a time, the word "karate" was synonymous with almost every Far East Asian martial art. Seems like this would increase people's perception of karate as "generic" over time.

2. I remember Tae Kwon Do beginning to make a name for itself and take off in the early 90's. In my observation, it eventually surpassed karate in popularity, and karate was left behind.

3. If we set aside the classic movies, like the Karate Kid series and Bloodsport, karate movies from the 80's and early 90's just didn't age very well. The Karate Kid series and Bloodsport may not even exceptions. What keeps these movies enjoyable might be the 80's pop culture thing in the case of the former, and the "so bad it's good" factor in the case of the latter. The decline in popularity of these movies likely meant that there was less karate in the media to pique the interests of young people who may have otherwise been interested.

I don't point the finger at MMA. It was kept behind a paywall in its early years (pay-per-view), so most of us couldn't watch it. I think most people probably assumed that it was all karate and kung fu.

Nah, point the finger at MMA. While people couldn't actually view the fights themselves, the results were still broadcasted far and wide. MMA is what changed the landscape of martial arts and put traditional martial arts on a backpedal where they have to constantly be judged against its standard. Karate was a victim of that sea change.

 

[jobo]

You really can't stop it. Karate is simply one of those martial arts that attempt to maintain tradition in a world that pushes for modernity and fact finding. Just like the majority of people around the world are beginning to disfavor religion and adopt a secular view of their world, people are also beginning to lose favor towards traditional martial arts that rely more on mysticism and legends than applicability.

unless you have actual figures to contradict the majority of people in the world appear to be religious, even in places that have outlawed religion

 

[Hanzou]

unless you have actual figures to contradict the majority of people in the world appear to be religious, even in places that have outlawed religion

I never said the majority wasn't religious. I'm saying that the number of religious people in the world is shrinking, and eventually they will be a minority.

 

[Graywalker]

Nah, point the finger at MMA. While people couldn't actually view the fights themselves, the results were still broadcasted far and wide. MMA is what changed the landscape of martial arts and put traditional martial arts on a backpedal where they have to constantly be judged against its standard. Karate was a victim of that sea change.

I would disagree, MMA to me is simply entertainment, well I should say the UFC. MMA is really nothing new in the martial art world. Folks have been mixing arts long before the UFC..not everyone but some.

Now I think personally, MMA is a training method, not an Art so to speak. And, as always, the training and it's results, are dependent upon the person training. And, is just a current popular method.

I should also state that the UFC, is more like the WWE, these days, it's entertainment.

 

[jobo]

I never said the majority wasn't religious. I'm saying that the number of religious people in the world is shrinking, and eventually they will be a minority.

you appeared to say something resembling that.

but as most of the major area of population growth also seem to be very religious places, I'm still asking for some data that shows the % of those who ascribe to a religion is shrinking .

a quick google later, it seem christianity is shrinking, Islam is growing, Hinduism is stable
and atheists make up only 2% of the worlds population and is also stable, so not shrinking it seems

 

[Hanzou]

I would disagree, MMA to me is simply entertainment, well I should say the UFC. MMA is really nothing new in the martial art world. Folks have been mixing arts long before the UFC..not everyone but some.

Now I think personally, MMA is a training method, not an Art so to speak. And, as always, the training and it's results, are dependent upon the person training. And, is just a current popular method.

I should also state that the UFC, is more like the WWE, these days, it's entertainment.

It goes a bit beyond entertainment, because you have MMA exponents challenging TMA exponents and vice versa, and those challenges tend to go in the MMA exponent’s favor. This gives the perception that MMA (and Bjj) is a more effective style to learn.

The most recent example of this is the amateur MMA fighter in China who is actively challenging Kung Fu grandmasters and beating them rather easily. This is partially causing a decline of Kung Fu in China, and a pretty rapid rise in MMA and Bjj. It’s also causing people to question the efficacy of their native arts.

MMA and Bjj is also rapidly growing in Korea and Japan as well.

 

[Graywalker]

It goes a bit beyond entertainment, because you have MMA exponents challenging TMA exponents and vice versa, and those challenges tend to go in the MMA exponent’s favor. This gives the perception that MMA (and Bjj) is a more effective style to learn.

The most recent example of this is the amateur MMA fighter in China who is actively challenging Kung Fu grandmasters and beating them rather easily. This is partially causing a decline of Kung Fu in China, and a pretty rapid rise in MMA and Bjj. It’s also causing people to question the efficacy of their native arts.

MMA and Bjj is also rapidly growing in Korea and Japan as well.

Well, MMA is a training method, not a style imo. As for BJJ, I would say wrestling is the superior grappling art.

Your example, is for the chinese kung fu master, is old and really, he just fought a person with full contact using punches and kicks (pretty common in all arts) I don't think the Kung Fu master ever really fought a day in his life.

The UFC calls themselves a entertainment industry, not a sport industry. You'd need to take that up with them.

 

[jobo]

It goes a bit beyond entertainment, because you have MMA exponents challenging TMA exponents and vice versa, and those challenges tend to go in the MMA exponent’s favor. This gives the perception that MMA (and Bjj) is a more effective style to learn.

The most recent example of this is the amateur MMA fighter in China who is actively challenging Kung Fu grandmasters and beating them rather easily. This is partially causing a decline of Kung Fu in China, and a pretty rapid rise in MMA and Bjj. It’s also causing people to question the efficacy of their native arts.

MMA and Bjj is also rapidly growing in Korea and Japan as well.

I've just googled again, try it, it seems the largest and biggest growth ma in china, is tkd, thos is largly to do with the light contact points sparring and smart uniforms, not at all driven by views on its efficiency, people who want to get beaten up in actual fights remains a small % even in china

 

[Hanzou]

I've just googled again, try it, it seems the largest and biggest growth ma in china, is tkd, thos is largly to do with the light contact points sparring and smart uniforms, not at all driven by views on its efficiency, people who want to get beaten up in actual fights remains a small % even in china

And you should try reading sometime. Nowhere in that reply did I say that MMA has the largest population or having the biggest growth.

 

[Hanzou]

Well, MMA is a training method, not a style imo. As for BJJ, I would say wrestling is the superior grappling art.

Aren’t all martial arts just training methods? Also Bjj is a form of wrestling, and the foundation of modern submission grappling.

Your example, is for the chinese kung fu master, is old and really, he just fought a person with full contact using punches and kicks (pretty common in all arts) I don't think the Kung Fu master ever really fought a day in his life.

That’s kind of the point.

The UFC calls themselves a entertainment industry, not a sport industry. You'd need to take that up with them.

The UFC is as entertainment company. MMA is a style/system of martial arts. There’s a difference.

 

[jobo]

And you should try reading sometime. Nowhere in that reply did I say that MMA has the largest population or having the biggest growth.

you said it had lead to the demise of kung fu, clearly it's the popularity of tkd that has some responsibility for that, not some challenge fight,that very few people have heard of,

your taking unrelated facts and weaving a narrative of causation and it's at best dishonest

 

[Hanzou]

you said it had lead to the demise of kung fu, clearly its tkd that has done that, not some challenge fight,that very few people have heard of,

I said "partially causing the decline of". There's that nasty habit of you not reading things again.

And actually the multiple challenge fights have been rather big news...

Chinese Martial Artists Must Stop Calling Themselves "Masters", According to Official Decree
Meet the Chinese MMA Fighter Taking on the Grandmasters of Kung Fu
He rose to fame for exposing fake kung fu. Now he just wants to ‘survive’ - Inkstone

 

[jobo]

I said "partially causing the decline of". There's that nasty habit of you not reading things again.

And actually the multiple challenge fights have been rather big news...

Chinese Martial Artists Must Stop Calling Themselves "Masters", According to Official Decree
Meet the Chinese MMA Fighter Taking on the Grandmasters of Kung Fu
He rose to fame for exposing fake kung fu. Now he just wants to ‘survive’ - Inkstone

well would you care to define partially, it covers an enourmass range of numbers

ok can you show that a challenge fight has had even noticable effect on the decline of kung fu popularity with the chinese people, allowing that this decline is some decades old?