Why is kobudo not the study of Chinese weapons?

[eyebeams]

This is related to my previous thread Why is karate different from kung fu?. Given the strong Chinese influence on Okinawan karate and the number of karateka who studied literal kung fu, either in Okinawa or actually in China, why aren't there more Chinese weapons studied in these systems? Why is there no three-section staff, nine section whip, butterfly knives, Chinese broadsword, etc.? For some I'll accept that they were principally Northern weapons, not Southern, but I can't think of a single clearly Chinese weapon that's studied in kobudo or Okinawan karate. Where is the long spear? The fan?

It's worth noting that many of these weapons were a part of the Seikichi Uehara Undundti/Gotente curriculum and were prominently displayed in a JAMA article about Uehara.

But Undunti has no kata*. Odd, isn't it?

Yon-setsu (three section) and other nunachu variants are also somewhat antique parts of kobudo, but they seem to be known to have been practiced -- they are not actively practiced.

* Well, it does not that Uehara's gone, since his successors now teach it as part of a karate curriculum.

 

[arnisador]

I didn't know this! The lack of kata is the really interesting part.

 

[Fraser]

Many researchers no longer hold to the 'sai as farming implement' anymore. There really is no good use for it as a farming tool.

Whenever reading about Japanese weapons deriving from farming tools, when I was 10 I had never seen anything that went into the details of any,I havn't thought to look into it since, i had always thought it was roughly :

nunchuka - detached from the hinge of a rice flail.
kama - scythe (self explanatory).

tonfa - crank handle of some kind, from a mill wheel or similar?


modern sai I had always assumed must have evolved from the head of a pitch fork.

 

[Shorin Ryuu]

I'll be lazy and copy-paste what I've been saying on another forum about this. So please excuse the tone of it...it certainly isn't directed at you.

It was in response to this statement:

The sai was use for poking holes in the ground so that they could plant seeds, the comma was use to cut grain, and if yall didnt know...the bo was used for carreing buckets full of water, the tonfa was used as the handle on the well to bring up the bucket of water, the nunchucks where used as a rice flail, oh yeah i guess i did spell kama lol.

followed by:

and you take shorin ryu, how did you not know this?

(note: I did let him get to me here...)

Yes, I knew the kama was for cutting in agricultural purposes. I never said it wasn't. I was merely fooling around at the "comma" typo. The kama was used for 100s of years as a weapon, although bigger and more durable ones were used by Bushi.

The bo is pretty much multi-purpose and could have evolved in any number of ways. They did, however, have records of battles where bo were being employed as early as the 1300s. It wasn't something just adapted from farm use. Yes, farmers may have easily done it, but so may have someone using a large walking staff or any number of things. Many villages had their own bo kata. Some were complex, some were only a few moves.
But again, it has a long and rich history of being a weapon.

As for the tonfa, the more popular story is the handle for grist mill. There are some sources which believe it was adapted from the "iron crutch" of China, a light and easily carried shield named "dong-wah" from Fujian China (John Sells). In addition, there may even be some Filipino influences as well. It is a possibility the weapon was taken and disguised as a farm implement instead of growing from one. It was still used as one, but its origin was a weapon. That is a more interesting yet still plausible argument. More so than the handle on a well, which would really only be useful if you happened to be by a well...(They just didn't walk around and carry their weapons and farm tools all day long...)

The nunchucks [sic] (how that term grates my ears) probably derived from various sources. One of these is the nung-cha-kung in Fujian China. Again, already a weapon imported from China is a likely answer, although the Okinawan version is much shorter. Another popular one based on the type of "older nunchaku" made were a conversion of horse bridles and very much look like it. This makes sense as Bushi were able to have horses, and thus have horse bridles around. As far as the rice and grain flail thing...have you ever seen a grain flail? Those things bear a passing resemblence, but look vastly difference in terms of length and how you would employ them. I (as does John Sells) tend to think that was more of a "fool the Japanese" story than anything else. Even the long handled Chinese flails are shorter than grain flails...
Again, there is also a theory that the Filipinos may have taught them some nunchaku. I believe perhaps a merging of all the above...minus the nunchaku.



...So yes, I have done a lot of research on the weapons, as I do practice Shorin Ryu. As such, I make it a point to dispel common myths among people that have not. The Okinawans who repeat these myths have some justification; it's a cultural and tradition thing...but the rest of us have no excuse.


In my excitement, I forgot to talk about the sai...did you ever run a logic test on that story? How expensive did you think metal was on a small island? Especially a large hunk of metal required to make sai? Do you think every farmer had one? Or three, like some people insist? (you see, they had two in a hand...they would throw one and then take the other from behind their back... *groan*). Furthermore, there were variants and antecedents of the sai as a weapon in China, again, from Fujian. It was used by the royal bodyguards and the local constables. Not peasants who would poke holes in the ground...you can use wood for that, no need for costly metal...




(End copy-paste section)


Much of my thoughts on weaponry have been shaped by far more factual books on karate history, such as John Sells' Unante: The Secrets of Karate, my discussions with various instructors, what I know of East Asia (undergrad and grad school focus), and common sense.

Again, please don't take the tone as being directed towards you. It isn't.

 

[Fraser]

as they had metal for kama i'd asumed metal for a pitch fork wouldn't have been too much of a problem, and wood wouldn't have been strong enough.

I hadn't heard the seed hole poker theory, lol.

the rice flail thing, I know they are considerably longer, but otherwise wasn't aware of their construction, I did say i thoghut it was from the mid section, meaning the longer handles would be detatchable somehow.

i don't see why something so ... chunky would be used in a bridal though?

I was howerver fully aware I was attempting to use logic and presumtion to backup myth and legend

 

[chinto]

This is related to my previous thread Why is karate different from kung fu?. Given the strong Chinese influence on Okinawan karate and the number of karateka who studied literal kung fu, either in Okinawa or actually in China, why aren't there more Chinese weapons studied in these systems? Why is there no three-section staff, nine section whip, butterfly knives, Chinese broadsword, etc.? For some I'll accept that they were principally Northern weapons, not Southern, but I can't think of a single clearly Chinese weapon that's studied in kobudo or Okinawan karate. Where is the long spear? The fan?

I know of the claim that the sai comes from a Southern Chinese weapon (made for example in The Secrets of Phoenix-Eye Fist Kung Fu : The Art of Chuka Shaolin
by Cheong Cheng Leong and Mark V. Wiley, and previously discussed here though I can't find the thread). I don't know that that is a widely held belief though.

(Edited to fix URL.- Arnisador)

one of the reasons is that weapons were literealy outlawed with draconian peneltys if cought with one at all. ( the okinawan king out lawed them when he unified the island chain and the satsuma clan when they took the islands in about 1600 continued the ban on owning or training with weapons) so the Okinawans learned to use what were esentialy tools from farming and fishing and other trades as weapons. the 3 section staff is actualy a kobudo weapon, but most dont know it. there are a lot of weapons that were and are tools. Kama, tunfa, bo/kun and then there are the ones that were just weapons but small. these are things like tekko and such. but easily hidden and cast away. that is why for instance the long chinese spear is not tought. but if you look at the bo kata that have not been changed they would and do work just fine with a yari or a chinese spear. so in meany ways a suruchin could at least give you a clue how to use a steel whip perhaps. but again if cought with a 9 section whip the peneltys at times at least were death as I understand it.

 

[Victor Smith]

Okinawan kobudo is not one approach to training. There is a very honnored system, the family art of Matayoshi Shimpo which included many Chinese weapons forms and some Chinese empty hand forms as well.

So Okinawan Kobudo does contain Chinese weapons study.

The clips below contain some examples of Chinese related arts, IMO.

Sansetsukon vs Bo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgMoQCLAA2g
Suruchin Exercises
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx5TbBoMU3k
Timbei Kata and Bunkai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKvSKBBN0ko

 

[cstanley]

Why isn't baseball football? Why isn't soccer tennis?

 

[Nobody]

China did not even let any other country have it's idea on the Crossbow for over a thousand years so what would make you think someone learning Chinese Martial Art that was a foriegner to just come an go with something like Nine Section Whip, or Gen, maybe that an the thrusher are already in Okinawa an the Crossbow an major weapons did not make the cross. The Ji made it across so did several other staff based weapons.

 

[chinto]

Okinawan kobudo is not one approach to training. There is a very honnored system, the family art of Matayoshi Shimpo which included many Chinese weapons forms and some Chinese empty hand forms as well.

So Okinawan Kobudo does contain Chinese weapons study.

The clips below contain some examples of Chinese related arts, IMO.

Sansetsukon vs Bo

Suruchin Exercises

Timbei Kata and Bunkai

__________________
Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu
derry, nh, usa



the 3 section staff is tought in kobujitsu and is indeed a chinese weapon, but the timbei is a standerd weapon of the Okinawan military of the 1500's A.D. basicly a turttle shell sheild and a sword/short spear weapon used some what like an assagi or even a gladia in some respects. I am not awear of any bladed weapon in the chinese arts that is quite like it. the butterfly sword is kinda similer, but i dont know if the butterfly sword was a comon weapon or not in 1500 AD. but as in any situation where there are peoples some what close they will influince each others use of weapons. the main reason they did not use chinese weapons more extensivly is .. it was ilegal to even posses something that was a weapon in Okinawa after the first king banned weapons possession. so a cross bow or a chinese broad sword or long spear would be a very bad idea to be cought with, let along training with.

 

[Victor Smith]

Chinto,

There is debate about whether weapons were ever illegal on Okinawa.

Recently it was discovered that the entire historical story was a mistranslation and that the Okinawan king never banned weaopns but instead had the militia (everyone) store them in a central repository so if attacked everyone would gather, grab their weapons and organize a defense. It didn't work as the Japanese in the 1500's went through the Okinawan defenders in 20 hours.

Nor is was it illegal to own swords. The Japanese may have tried to control the import of weapons, but they didn't formally take family weapons away.

It seems a lot of the history that has been repeated infinately is based on bad origins.

I'm not a translator, but the longer I study the less I trust anything that has been written.

The Matayoshi family kobudo has definate Chinese sources, their empty hand traditions of Crane, Drunken and Monkey forms even more so.

Okinawa a traveling crossroads, (and with literally hundreds of shipwrecks and a continual source of new ideas) has martial sources from many traditions. There are Chinese communities of antiquity on the Island too.

Until the modern era, kobudo practice was very close, family and not open.

The past will remain a mystery because most of these arts were undocumented on purpose and that purpose succeeded as we cannot answer our questions further.

Of course much if not most of China's weapons traditions were local and family too.

 

[arnisador]

Neat! Thanks, Chinto!

Timbei Kata and Bunkai

Is that really traditional, with the forward rolls and all?

 

[arnisador]

Nor is was it illegal to own swords.

If this is so, why is the sword so very rarely seen in Okinawan arts? Everyone does the bo and sai, but the Okinawan sword is very rare.

 

[Victor Smith]

Hi Arnisdor,

I think it is fair to make a distinction from swords being owned by families as opposed to sword training systems. The weapons themselves do not seem to have been banned, but how deep the sword traditions went is a question I guess.

Okinawa was never a terribly dangerous place. Except for the ports, and perhaps the Okinawan kings bodyguards, why would anyone have a need to have serious sword training? The actual Okinawan self defense forces in the 1500's only lasted about 20 hours when the Japanese took over.

If you do research into the various Okinawan instructors there are those who have incorporated sword training. The Royal arts also incorporated sword techniques (as much for defense preparation as offensive use).

But on the whole all kobudo on Okinawa until well into the 1900's was very private, family or village arts and didn't link up with karate studies until well into the 50's in part.

Okinawa's history is very textured. I'm not writing this as a historical document, have no intent to dig through all my sources to prove anything. It's just most of the books/articles, etc. keep simply copying what someone else wrote before without any research as to how valid the original statements were.

The Japanese were the ones that discovered that it was a mis-translation of an earlier document that gave rise to the 'history' that Okinawa's king banned weapons. But you still find Okinawan's referencing that is the case too. That leaves the question what is the real history, and those foxy Okinawan's were really good at not leaving much documentation around.

A quick reference to sword technique is found in Ryukyu Oke Hiden Bujutsu or Udundi of the Motobu family. If you seek it out you can see Uehara Seikichi showing some sword technique on YouTube. These studies are also partly documented in "The Secret Royal Martial Arts of Ryukyu" by Matsuo Kanenori Sakon (translated by Joseph Swift).

I also recall other instructors who had studied sword.

How effective these arts were cannot be proven by books or video clips.

But there is some sword tradition on Okinawa that continued.

Okinawan arts vary between the Karate Ones, the Udundi ones, the various weapons traditions (Yammani, Taira Shinken, Matayoshi and others), Okinawan Sumo and likely others far less known.

The only thing I know for sure is the longer I look, the more problems I find with almost everything that has been written.

 

[Victor Smith]

Timbei Kata and Bunkai

Arnisdor asked "Is that really traditional, with the forward rolls and all?"

Yes in the Matayoshi lineage as well as those arts preserved in the Taira Shinken lineage (though they use tortise shells for shields - or modern equivalents).

That video of the Matayoshi lineage Timbei kata likely references Matayoshi's strong Chinese lineage too. But their transmission into the modern era is Okinawan.

 

[arnisador]

Thanks for sharing all this information! I find it fascinating. Seeing some Chinese weapons and some swordwork really fills in the gaps in what I expected to see vs. what I have always seen--bo, sai, tonfa, nunchaku, and maybe some variants.

 

[chinto]

Neat! Thanks, Chinto!




Is that really traditional, with the forward rolls and all?

I could not say.. took that as a quote to respond to what that person had said.... well tryied to do a mini quote actualy..

but i have no idea if that is even close to traditional. i dont know any of the kata for that weapon. the weapon and sheild is however a traditional weapon of the okinawans for their army/militia from around 1500