Why is kobudo not the study of Chinese weapons?

[RyuShiKan]

Of the swords used in Okinawa I have seen the Chinese Broad Sword, Katana, "mountain sword", and the long handled knife that is used in the Rochin and Tinbei combination.

I have never actually seen an "Okinawan Sword" per say. I don't even know if they had foundaries to make anything like a katana.

Good question and if I had the time and resources I wouldn't mind looking into that further.

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by arnisador



I've asked this before--was there a traditional Okinawan sword? One imagines there muct have been but I have never heard of one.

I not sure, but why should there? If you look at the European MA, the swords evovls depending on how combat evovled. The japanese have held onto the "katana", but I think (and not sure)it's because the religious status the swords has, and the way they fighted didn't change either, and the social status connected with the sword.

/Yari

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by arnisador


But even some of that--that the tonfa, sai, nunchaku were farming implements--is conjecture, is it not? I am not entirely convinced that this is the case but I am prepared to be corrected.

Many researchers no longer hold to the 'sai as farming implement' anymore. There really is no good use for it as a farming tool. Also, its appearance as a weapon in Chinese and Filipino martial arts suggest that it was a weapon brought over from elsewhere, most likely China due to Okinawa's connection to China.

Cthulhu

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Cthulhu



Many researchers no longer hold to the 'sai as farming implement' anymore. There really is no good use for it as a farming tool. Also, its appearance as a weapon in Chinese and Filipino martial arts suggest that it was a weapon brought over from elsewhere, most likely China due to Okinawa's connection to China.

Cthulhu

Most researchers never thought it was a farming tool.......since most Okinawas knew what it was.
I have never met an Okinawa that said it was a "farm tool"

 

[sweeper]

in europe swords didn't just change due to the changes in combat, but combat also changed due to the sword.

also (keep in mind I don't know a whole lot about japanese swordplay) I think the lack of gunpowder alowed the japanese sword to stay usefull in combat.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by sweeper

also (keep in mind I don't know a whole lot about japanese swordplay) I think the lack of gunpowder alowed the japanese sword to stay usefull in combat.

There is a fascinating story behind Japan's experience with guns; it also affected archery of course.

 

[arnisador]

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

 

[Sauzin]

This of course is just conjecture.

My feel for it is that it is largely a cultural phenomena. While I'm sure swords were employed, Okinwans preferred the conditioning of the body and preferred to rely on it. If I had to place one weapon as the Okinawan sword it would be the 6ft bo. It seemed to be an island hobby or fascination. Many villages developed exercises with these staffs and they knew very little else. While there is definitely some Chinese influence with the bo, there is less here then in almost anything else. I would say the oar, sai, tonfa, kama, and nunchucku were less common initially. When karate began getting more organized just prior to WWII there was a large exchange of weapon knowledge. A lot of it probably went "I will show you this staff kata if you will show me a weapon I don't know". These other weapons were likely refined during this drive to put kobudo together. This is not to say that koboudo isn't as its name suggests (old). This is to say that most kobudo systems are a compilation of old kata from various sources, many of which are not in the systems direct lineage. 150 years ago you'd have a hard time finding anyone on Okinawa who practiced all the weapons that are now considered in kobudo. Rather you would find a staff expert or a kama expert or a group of people who employed the sai (which was developed from Chinese weaponry and used to disarm and engage bo fighters).

So to summarize, it is my belief that the compilation of weapons now considered to be in kobudo largely came together within the last 100 years on an island known for colorful weapons specialists. Since a full system of Chinese weaponry did not exist on the island at the time, what is now known as kobudo is a compilation of weapons used by these colorful and specialized masters.

Not sure if I’m right but at least it’s another perspective.

-Paul Holsinger

 

[arnisador]

the long handled knife that is used in the Rochin and Tinbei combination.

I don't know what this is! Does anyone have an image of it?

 

[arnisador]

Many researchers no longer hold to the 'sai as farming implement' anymore.

Yes, I now believe that. It's hard to shake out the old lessons passed on by my Karate instructors though!

 

[Gama]

I don't know what this is! Does anyone have an image of it?

Try here

 

[arnisador]

Ah, thanks! I haven't seen something like this before. I'll look it over in more detail later.

 

[Andrew Green]

Ok, in Okinawan martial arts there are different "types" of weapons.

The most common are the bo and the sai, which where used by a middle class police-like group of people. The bo was lower ranking "officers", the sai higher.

Then there is the lower class weapons, the farm tools if you like. The tonfa, nunchaku, kama, tekko, etc. These where not very developed, there are only a few kata for them and they are generally "modern" creations.

There is Chinese influence in there in places, timbae looks similar to a shield/short sword, three sectional staff does get used occasionally.

But my guess would be cost. Steel weapons where expensive. Most of the martial artists where not wealthy, and the weapons that where available to them (and a part of there job) where the bo and the sai. And the lower class wouldn't have been able to afford weapons.

 

[Gene Williams]

The bo is probably the oldest Okinawan weapon, and certainly not primarily used by police. Many of those kata are indeed older and probably go back to China. There are a couple of fairly old kama kata, such as Hama Higa no Kama, but most of what I see is more recent. Also, several tonfa kata pre-date 1900, and may go back further (Hama Higa no tonfa), and Chatan Yara no sai is older. There are really not that many kobudo kata that are very old. But, there are around 15 or 20 that have a long history (pre-1900). Original sai were made of iron and quite heavy. The flippy techniques you see in tournaments are just flash and of no practical value.

 

[brothershaw]

I would figure that
- while okinawa karate traces back to china
1- the people who originally learned the kung fu didnt learn the complete systems
2- in many arts the weapons are taught last, so if you didnt learn the whole system you wont know the weapons and instead you may practice the system based on what you did know and then apply it to weapons most handy to you

think about how intermediate level people do a form they think they know compared to a black belt or teacher who knows all the correct things to do that the intermediate does wrong

its hard to pass on what you dont know,

 

[arnisador]

That's a plausible explanation. I wonder if it's right or not, though? It just seems funny that so much of the empty hand stuff came through, and so very little of the weapons stuff.

 

[Shorin Ryuu]

As stated before, it really is due to the weapons bans imposed by the samurai. Prior to their invasion, there already was a weapons ban on Okinawa which applied to the common folk. When the Satsuma samurai came, it was merely extended to the gentry.

Yes, there were some of them who ended up training in China and gained some knowledge there, but they more often adapted this to the weapons they could "openly" have. Therefore there is no logical disconnect.

Also, because it was less common, it is unsurprising most all traces of Chinese kobudo died out. Although bo use in styles such as Yamanni Ryu (which maintains the bo is the most advanced weapon) and a few other bo kata is decidedly Chinese.

There are stories of Bushi Matsumura learning Jigen Ryu swordsmanship in Satsuma, which wouldn't surprise me as he was essentially an Okinawan equivalent of a samurai.

We really owe a lot to Taira Shinken and his efforts to learn many weapons kata and preserve them for modern generations. In the early 1900s and around the WWII era, even empty hand Okinawan systems were suffering from a malaise despite the revolutionary work of many masters during the time and its general opening to the public. Times were hard and not everyone wanted to do it. The fact that unlawful weapons usage and systems may have died out doesn't seem very unlikely.

 

[arnisador]

Although bo use in styles such as Yamanni Ryu (which maintains the bo is the most advanced weapon) and a few other bo kata is decidedly Chinese.

This is what I really expected to see more of rather than, say, butterfly swords or three-section staves. But despite the illegality, I would have expected to see some style, somewhere, that maintained a Chinese weapon of some sort.

I see your logic in the main, though.

 

[brothershaw]

That's a plausible explanation. I wonder if it's right or not, though? It just seems funny that so much of the empty hand stuff came through, and so very little of the weapons stuff.

How much of the empty hand stuff really came through ?
Although okinawan arts were heavily influenced/ derived from some southern chinese arts dont the okinawan arts just have some peices combined with the okinawan twist on things? In addition the way the body mechanics are used (different)? The way chinese arts are taught vs okinawa te or japanese karate? I read an article about an old teacher/ master from okinawa who stated to the effect sometimes they would make up forms using the name of another form they might have seen but didnt realy know.

Alot of speculation on my part but I guess what I am saying is how much/ how little actually was preserved from china to okinawa? 20%, 50% ?
If alot of the empty hand stuff isnt there how much of the weapons is?

I could be completely wrong though, anybody with info feel free to critique..

 

[arnisador]

I've heard it said that Okinawan Karate is 40% Chinese, 40% Okinawan, and 20% other:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=812

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1521

I've also heard up to 70-80% Chinese.