Why is it taekwondo do NOT go well with Okinawan karate or Kenpo karate

[lklawson]

Well yea martial arts today can only do so much in self defense way. I have friend who is cop and in the city there is lot of street gangs, guns and street thugs going around robbing people on the street and there are places one officer with gun just do not even go on patrol alone .

What's that have to do with the videos you posted? Those vids were chock-a-block with unrealistic attacks and unrealistic responses to those attacks.

There are apartment complexes coded on dispatchers screen to sent no less than 5 officers even on a 911 hang up or EMS call. Because every one is very anti-police and have guns in that apartment complexes.

What's that have to do with the videos you posted? Those vids were chock-a-block with unrealistic attacks and unrealistic responses to those attacks.

You safer to turn over you money on street than 4 to 8 thugs fighting with you and where most thugs in my city have guns.

What's that have to do with the videos you posted? Those vids were chock-a-block with unrealistic attacks and unrealistic responses to those attacks.

A self defense is more better for fighting a out of control drunk attacking you, emotionally disturbed person off their meds going crazy or some one trying to rape you or kidnap you.

Some one robbing you or group of thugs there is very little martial arts can do because of use of guns and number of attackers.

If you don't live in a ghetto, go to bars, night clubs and hang out with rough people you chance you ever need self defense is low.

What's that have to do with the videos you posted? Those vids were chock-a-block with unrealistic attacks and unrealistic responses to those attacks.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Some Self Defense that too script like you do this than I do this and than you do this and I do this do not work well because on the street it may not play out that way. He does this and you do this but he does not do this or he does that and you like why did this go that way.

The idea with a script is that you can do a snippet of a fight with varying degrees of intensity

 

[Touch Of Death]

The reason these arts don't fit together is because of the timing. Its two different ways of thinking. Even your cop friend thinks one way, not two. I'd have to watch him and see which art dominated, but I suspect TKD.

 

[WaterGal]

As far as Self Defense goes, that was, all of it, astoundingly awful, from the unrealistic attacks to the unrealistic defenses for them.

Yeah, definitely. I think there were a few decent moves in the second video, but it was so staged that it looked kinda cheesy anyway. But on the whole, when I see videos like these.... I feel like those schools would be better off just not bothering with that stuff, not delude their students into thinking they can, say, get out of a rear choke by turning around and punching their attacker in the head so hard he flies up in the air. TKD has a lot of great techniques and valuable benefits, but moves like that are not one of them.

 

[Tez3]

Yeah, definitely. I think there were a few decent moves in the second video, but it was so staged that it looked kinda cheesy anyway. But on the whole, when I see videos like these.... I feel like those schools would be better off just not bothering with that stuff, not delude their students into thinking they can, say, get out of a rear choke by turning around and punching their attacker in the head so hard he flies up in the air. TKD has a lot of great techniques and valuable benefits, but moves like that are not one of them.

Quite often though schools do teach good self defence techniques and they think videoing the techniques is a good idea. However amateurs can rarely make good videos, they get self conscious, try to act and generally make it all look very awkward. They exaggerate things thinking it would look more dramatic, they chose the techniques they think will look good and generally ham it up like a bad amdram company.

 

[moonhill99]

I'm confused here I said some one that is black belt in Parker-lineage Kenpo than takes taekwondo and black belt in taekwondo would the two work well or not or make it worse from a self defense point of view.

Parker-lineage Kenpo is for close fighting well taekwondo is not. But taekwondo does have moves if the attacker is at close range and you cannot kick because the attacker is too close. It just not as good like Parker-lineage Kenpo techniques for close range fighting .

Than some people here are saying some of the techniques are unrealistic in street fight.

 

[moonhill99]

Quite often though schools do teach good self defence techniques and they think videoing the techniques is a good idea. However amateurs can rarely make good videos, they get self conscious, try to act and generally make it all look very awkward. They exaggerate things thinking it would look more dramatic, they chose the techniques they think will look good and generally ham it up like a bad amdram company.

Some people think taekwondo or karate do not teach self defense and they do. It just you start to learn that when you a black belt. That is why I posted those video that they do teach self defense in taekwondo or karate. It just you don't start to learn that to you black belt.

Well Krav Maga does it the first day you walk in.

 

[Tez3]

Some people think taekwondo or karate do not teach self defense and they do. It just you start to learn that when you a black belt. That is why I posted those video that they do teach self defense in taekwondo or karate. It just you don't start to learn that to you black belt.

Well Krav Maga does it the first day you walk in.

We start teaching self defence from white belt, most places I know do. Why wouldn't they? I think you are either assuming or generalising too
much. Either that or you don't know much about martial arts?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Some people think taekwondo or karate do not teach self defense and they do. It just you start to learn that when you a black belt. That is why I posted those video that they do teach self defense in taekwondo or karate. It just you don't start to learn that to you black belt.

Well Krav Maga does it the first day you walk in.

We teach self defense in TKD from day one.

As I said earlier in the thread, I think the bottom line problem is that you don't actually know anything about TKD.

 

[lklawson]

Some people think taekwondo or karate do not teach self defense and they do. It just you start to learn that when you a black belt. That is why I posted those video that they do teach self defense in taekwondo or karate. It just you don't start to learn that to you black belt.

Wait. Those videos were your evidence of valid self defense techniques?!?! <boggle> Those videos were (let me emphasize this properly) COMPLETELY AND IDIOTICALLY USELESS. Even attempting most of those techniques demonstrated for self defense would, if you were lucky, "merely" fail dramatically. If you were unlucky, they'd get you horribly injured (or just dead). At best, they were laughable. The funniest part was the self defense against a Rear Naked (Hadaka Jime) choke hold by someone who hadn't even seen it demonstrated on "Big Time Wrestling," never mind actually had even one second training on how it is performed.

In summary, if those videos are "proof" that valid self defense is taught in Tae Kwon Do and/or "Karate" then I would be forced to conclude that self defense isn't actually taught, at least not by people who've ever been in even a primary school fight.

Well Krav Maga does it the first day you walk in.

Depends on the Krav school. I've seen some Krav that was OK and a lot of it that is every bit as much a joke as those videos. This is particularly true of the U.S. where Krav was (still is?) a fad. Instructors from some other martial art could go and take a weekend seminar and be "Certified" in Krav. They'd then come back to their school and hang another shingle out saying they also teach Krav. <sigh>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Balrog]

Problem with lot of karate and taekwondo in US is that school curriculum as move away from self defense and combat into sports and tournaments and kid friendly.

You normally don't learn self defense in karate and taekwondo to you a black belt.

...snip...
Than there schools that don't teach this.

Person probably be better of fighting a self-defense school than taking taekwondo or karate.

Wow. Sure is nice to see someone who is so incredibly knowledgeable about things that he apparently doesn't know anything about.

As far as Taekwondo not teaching self-defense, I guess I didn't get that memo. My students learn from day one that the underlying foundation of martial arts training is self-defense. And self-defense is not just the punching and the kicking and the pressure points and the joint locks, etc. It's the mindset of confidence that comes from hard training that makes you appear to be an unsatisfactory target for the bad guy who's profiling for victims.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Wait. Those videos were your evidence of valid self defense techniques?!?! <boggle> Those videos were (let me emphasize this properly) COMPLETELY AND IDIOTICALLY USELESS. Even attempting most of those techniques demonstrated for self defense would, if you were lucky, "merely" fail dramatically. If you were unlucky, they'd get you horribly injured (or just dead). At best, they were laughable. The funniest part was the self defense against a Rear Naked (Hadaka Jime) choke hold by someone who hadn't even seen it demonstrated on "Big Time Wrestling," never mind actually had even one second training on how it is performed.

In summary, if those videos are "proof" that valid self defense is taught in Tae Kwon Do and/or "Karate" then I would be forced to conclude that self defense isn't actually taught, at least not by people who've ever been in even a primary school fight.

I'm seeing a little more variance in the videos than that.

1st video (TKD) - pretty laughably bad. The common theme is that the "attacker" grabs hold of you in some pointless manner and then just stands there like an idiot while you hit him and send him flying. Would probably work best against someone who was drunk enough to grab hold of you and then forget what they were doing in the middle and then fall over because they couldn't keep their balance any more.

2nd video (Kyokushin) - the attackers coming one at a time is unrealistic and probably just done that way for purposes of looking good for the demo. Many of the attacks were done karate-style, which is not tremendously likely in most circumstances. In addition, some of the defenses were not tactically appropriate for a fight against multiple opponents. Nevertheless, the techniques demonstrated were generally sound and performed competently.

3rd video (Shotokan?) - the uke seems unclear on the concept of how a choke works and the tori seems unclear on the concept of how a throw works. The elbow strike is low-percentage against a committed attacker. The groin strike has at least some chance of loosening the choke if the attacker is not skilled or determined. (Obviously it would be unlikely to succeed against someone who is trained in proper application of the choke, but that category would exclude most real world attackers.) The "throw" was worse than most of my white belts do on the first day I teach them a throw.

4th video (Soo Bahk Do) - it's hard to tell, because the video cuts out most of the instruction, but I think there may be a valid technique under there that the instructor was trying to teach. Unfortunately, I think this may have been one of those one-day "women's self-defense" seminars and the students had none of the fundamental skills necessary to perform the technique correctly. The ukes were basically going along with the poorly done technique in order to encourage the students, but I'm not convinced they were doing anyone any favors.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

3rd video (Shotokan?) - the uke seems unclear on the concept of how a choke works and the tori seems unclear on the concept of how a throw works.

On second view, I think we may be misinterpreting the video. Despite what the title and the narration say, that is clearly not a choke. It's a loose hug around the shoulders. The actual application goes like this:

Him: Aw, c'mon honey, don't be mad. Let's snuggle on the couch and watch some Netflix.(HUG)
Her: Don't "honey" me mister! (BAM) I told you what would happen (WHAM) if you left the toilet seat up again in the middle of the night and I fell in! (SLAM).

 

[WaterGal]

Quite often though schools do teach good self defence techniques and they think videoing the techniques is a good idea. However amateurs can rarely make good videos, they get self conscious, try to act and generally make it all look very awkward. They exaggerate things thinking it would look more dramatic, they chose the techniques they think will look good and generally ham it up like a bad amdram company.

It's one thing to pick dramatic-looking techniques and try to ham it up for the audience. I think that's what's going on with the second video. But some of the techniques in these videos seem to be based on the idea that your opponent is just standing in place loosely touching you. Like the one I mentioned - if someone has you tight in a rear choke, you won't be able to just turn around in their hold and punch them in the face.

 

[Tez3]

It's one thing to pick dramatic-looking techniques and try to ham it up for the audience. I think that's what's going on with the second video. But some of the techniques in these videos seem to be based on the idea that your opponent is just standing in place loosely touching you. Like the one I mentioned - if someone has you tight in a rear choke, you won't be able to just turn around in their hold and punch them in the face.

It's the same thing as I've seen on a video on another thread, the guy is demonstrating a backfist and leaves his arm out after the strike so the other guy can punch him back.

 

[Manny]

Yea that is what some people tell me. The fancy kicks make it a awesome factor to get lot people drawn into it.

But taekwondo does have many hand striking when you up close range and you can't really kick because you in closed range. But just not as much as what you learn in karate.

You are right and that's because taekwondo sabonims focus on long range figthing, because those nice and fancy kicks puts the bread on the table, you must realize that almost all the sparring that people do in the dojangs/dojos/kwons are in a safe enviroments (dojos) and with certain kind of rules so the sparring is not a real street fight.

I am a third degree black belt in TKD ala WTF and can tell you if I need to use my hands instead of my feet I can use a lot of hand techs and can cause disconfort, pain, and even worse things. I am a 47 yo man not a kid anymore so I need to fight smart and be sure that I can use wathever resourse I have in hand to try to knock you down.

El Manny

 

[moonhill99]

Manny I'm pulling out of my threads because some of the threads are deteriorating and people are arguing on what is proper self defense techniques.

One last thing here.

You are right and that's because taekwondo sabonims focus on long range figthing, because those nice and fancy kicks puts the bread on the table, you must realize that almost all the sparring that people do in the dojangs/dojos/kwons are in a safe enviroments (dojos) and with certain kind of rules so the sparring is not a real street fight.

If I think what I think you mean here you may not be able to use those kicks if the attacker gets to close to you. Or you in staircase,elevator, hallway,in house with stuff no more than three feet in front of you.

That it only works in open with lot of room and the attacker does not get to close to you.

I am a third degree black belt in TKD ala WTF and can tell you if I need to use my hands instead of my feet I can use a lot of hand techs and can cause disconfort, pain, and even worse things. I am a 47 yo man not a kid anymore so I need to fight smart and be sure that I can use wathever resourse I have in hand to try to knock you down.

El Manny

I understand that, but what I'm saying is people that supplement it with close fighting art like Kenpo karate. How it would work. Make it less affected or help.

The core of TKD is long range fighting and if one supplement it with close fighting art like Kenpo karate how it would work. Make it worse or help the person lot.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Manny I'm pulling out of my threads because some of the threads are deteriorating and people are arguing on what is proper self defense techniques.

One last thing here.




If I think what I think you mean here you may not be able to use those kicks if the attacker gets to close to you. Or you in staircase,elevator, hallway,in house with stuff no more than three feet in front of you.

That it only works in open with lot of room and the attacker does not get to close to you.




I understand that, but what I'm saying is people that supplement it with close fighting art like Kenpo karate. How it would work. Make it less affected or help.

The core of TKD is long range fighting and if one supplement it with close fighting art like Kenpo karate how it would work. Make it worse or help the person lot.

One art is made worse by the other. You decide which.

 

[ballen0351]

Manny I'm pulling out of my threads because some of the threads are deteriorating and people are arguing on what is proper self defense techniques.

One last thing here.




If I think what I think you mean here you may not be able to use those kicks if the attacker gets to close to you. Or you in staircase,elevator, hallway,in house with stuff no more than three feet in front of you.

That it only works in open with lot of room and the attacker does not get to close to you.




I understand that, but what I'm saying is people that supplement it with close fighting art like Kenpo karate. How it would work. Make it less affected or help.

The core of TKD is long range fighting and if one supplement it with close fighting art like Kenpo karate how it would work. Make it worse or help the person lot.

Perhaps I missed this in the past but what art do you train in moonhill?

 

[lklawson]

I'm seeing a little more variance in the videos than that.

1st video (TKD) - pretty laughably bad. The common theme is that the "attacker" grabs hold of you in some pointless manner and then just stands there like an idiot while you hit him and send him flying. Would probably work best against someone who was drunk enough to grab hold of you and then forget what they were doing in the middle and then fall over because they couldn't keep their balance any more.

Yup.

2nd video (Kyokushin) - the attackers coming one at a time is unrealistic and probably just done that way for purposes of looking good for the demo. Many of the attacks were done karate-style, which is not tremendously likely in most circumstances. In addition, some of the defenses were not tactically appropriate for a fight against multiple opponents. Nevertheless, the techniques demonstrated were generally sound and performed competently.

I had some hopes for this one but it was quickly dashed. The worst of it was the knife and baseball bat defenses. Stabbed and/or smashed in skull. Dropping to the floor and kicking at a ballbat attack? <boggle> If it's just a demo to look spiffy, then it's all good. Whatever. Everyone wants to look cool and flashy in demos. But as bona fide self defense? No way.

3rd video (Shotokan?) - the uke seems unclear on the concept of how a choke works and the tori seems unclear on the concept of how a throw works. The elbow strike is low-percentage against a committed attacker. The groin strike has at least some chance of loosening the choke if the attacker is not skilled or determined. (Obviously it would be unlikely to succeed against someone who is trained in proper application of the choke, but that category would exclude most real world attackers.) The "throw" was worse than most of my white belts do on the first day I teach them a throw.

This one offended me most.

4th video (Soo Bahk Do) - it's hard to tell, because the video cuts out most of the instruction, but I think there may be a valid technique under there that the instructor was trying to teach. Unfortunately, I think this may have been one of those one-day "women's self-defense" seminars and the students had none of the fundamental skills necessary to perform the technique correctly. The ukes were basically going along with the poorly done technique in order to encourage the students, but I'm not convinced they were doing anyone any favors.

I hate one-day self defense seminars in general. Actual martial skill requires real training and practice. Even the simple stuff takes some time and effort. One-day self defense seminars should include things like "use the chef's knife to slash anything of his that gets close to you, then 'sewing-machine-of-death' the attacker until he stops attacking." Compliant uke's don't actually help past the very early stages of training.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk