Some kung fu and karate do not do well fighting a boxer or skilled street fighter?

[ShotoNoob]

The problem with karate blocks that I've seen is they can be slow and difficult to execute against a combination attack. They also seem like they'd be hard to pull off against an opponent that is in a tight range like a boxer that moves in tight and throws hooks. Of course kyukoshin seems to use a tight cover much like a boxers, so it's reasonable to assume other versions of karate have a similiar approach.

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Here, a mixed martial artist who agrees with your assessment. He points out how vulnerable wing chun is against the boxer.

Funny thing though, he has your theme switched. He says Wing chun is good for close-in. He says boxing is better @ distance.
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He says Wing Chun fails in closing the distance. Thoughts?
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BTW: I'm ignoring the 'FRAUD' label because I have seen & heard his exact criticism times before. Not sure if the label is referring to the Wing chun instructor or the 'boxer' opponent.

It isnt just kyukushin, thats how all styles block in free sparring

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OH, just wanted to add your TMA guard point. the vids shows the boxer opponent flying right by the classical wing chun guard. So this is a great demonstration of what you said about "keeping hands up."

 

[RTKDCMB]

ShotoNoob a better one would be.


All three did really badly with a ‪boxer.‬

Lets analyze them a bit shall we?

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boxing vs karate‬

Needs more context;

1) Was the video a highlight reel for the Boxer?

2) Were they the only three fights he won and he lost the next ten?

3) Was he a Boxer with 15 years of experience against Karate guys with only one or two?

4) Was the first fighter taking on the boxer a Karate guy or a Kickboxer, or something else?

You can't just look at a couple of fights between people you have never seen before and conclude the art of whoever lost the fight is useless. That would be a Hasty Generalization.

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Karate v Boxing‬

There was no mention of Karate anywhere in that video. There wasn't even any mention of Boxing. The one punch that was thrown could have come from any number of arts. The so called Karate guy did not appear to have had any training at all.

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karate‬ vs skilled street fighter fighting

The Karate girl in that video did a lot better than the skilled street fighter did. If it were scored she would have won on points. The video itself clearly says "there was no winner".

If you want to show the superiority of Boxing you need much better examples.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Lets analyze them a bit shall we?
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[Edit]Video #1[Edit]
Needs more context;

1) Was the video a highlight reel for the Boxer?

2) Were they the only three fights he won and he lost the next ten?

3) Was he a Boxer with 15 years of experience against Karate guys with only one or two?

4) Was the first fighter taking on the boxer a Karate guy or a Kickboxer, or something else?

You can't just look at a couple of fights between people you have never seen before and conclude the art of whoever lost the fight is useless. That would be a Hasty Generalization.
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[Edit]Video #2[Edit]
There was no mention of Karate anywhere in that video. There wasn't even any mention of Boxing. The one punch that was thrown could have come from any number of arts. The so called Karate guy did not appear to have had any training at all.
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[Edit]Video #3[Edit]
The Karate girl in that video did a lot better than the skilled street fighter did. If it were scored she would have won on points. The video itself clearly says "there was no winner".

If you want to show the superiority of Boxing you need much better examples.

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Thanks for chiming in: Here's my add-on to what you analyzed:
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Video #1: Highlight Reel for the Boxer(s).
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Video #2: No additional comment.
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Video #3: I made a T_I_C comment about girls doing self defense demonstration against men @ another T. Clearly the Karate girl is @ numerous disadvantages physically against her male 'street fighter' opponent. Kudo's to her for taking on the challenge, that's my overall response....
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If I had to pick a winner, I'd pick the male street fighter. I think some of the comments about rule sets for different fighting styles should also be brought into the decision. Under Shotokan point fighting kumite , she as you say could well have won. I'm not a point fighter so I'll defer....

 

[ShotoNoob]

edit

 

[tshadowchaser]

My thought on this vs that or mine vs yours, etc., You tube is a poor place to find any proof of such claims because you can pretty much find the right video to prove your point if you look hard enough.
If this thread was boxers do not do well against "X" I am sure there would be videos out there somewhere to prove it.
Each art has things it dose well and those it dose not and thus they have opponents that they might lose to or win against. These threads prove nothing other than you can find anything on the net

 

[moonhill99]

I think Shotokan ‪Karate‬

Or kyukoshin ‪Karate‬ would do better it uses more kicks and fights and different ranges.

Also more higher kicks in Shotokan ‪Karate or kyukoshin ‪Karate‬.

 

[Shai Hulud]

We get these a lot. It boils down to training. There's a lot of underlying techniques in Kung Fu forms and Karate kata's, and it's not necessarily that you use all of them every time. Like research work, you break the "textbooks" down, single out what you need (in relation to the rest of the material of course) and drill it until you sweat buckets.

If your school focuses on form demonstration, then yes you may have some trouble when you finally have no other option but to engage in the streets. However if you regularly drill (not necessarily sparring) for specific situations in self-defense as the old timers did, I think that you'll fare a lot better.

 

[ShotoNoob]

My thought on this vs that or mine vs yours, etc., You tube is a poor place to find any proof of such claims because you can pretty much find the right video to prove your point if you look hard enough....

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I think you can learn to discern the wheat from the chaff. It's really the value of a forum to the individual. Looked up some of the associates of Drose427 new gym. Learned a bit from YT there.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I think Shotokan ‪Karate‬
[Edit] Vids [Edit]
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Or kyukoshin ‪Karate‬ would do better it uses more kicks and fights and different ranges.

Also more higher kicks in Shotokan ‪Karate or kyukoshin ‪Karate‬.

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Thanks for posting those vids. Personally I am neither a fan of Shotokan or KYO.
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At the same time, I felt your 1st Shotokan vid discloses the rigor with which Shotokan is to be practiced. Contrast this to Wonderboy's Open Workout YT vid demo just prior the his Matt Brown UFC fight, which Wonderboy lost.... I note the Wonderboy (karate) vs. Brown (MT) @ UFC 145 for the MMA aficionados. Thanks again for that great example of Shotokan.
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Looking @ Kyokushin as a teaching karate, I feel the big lesson is to be prepared for full contact. >> Don't get caught up in the sport karate conventions of speed-points, dancing around & reaction times alone. I just don't like how modern Kyo goes about refuting that.
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Secondly, I think it was Danny T who said it was important to distinguish between a demonstration/ pure teaching vid, and real-time practice vid. Again, your posting helped us along in that regard.
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Final note, your vids point out that Shotokan done seriously, learning & concentrating on using one's whole body into the technique in an aggressive, yet disciplined way, IS NO PUSHOVER.

IMO, Posters should look to the type of intensive training which you provided examples of....

 

[ShotoNoob]

I think that is why some of karate or kung fu do not do well fighting a boxer, Muay Thai or skilled street fighter or in MMA. The fighting range is very different.

But can this work or would get hit before you got into your
favorable range because a boxer, Muay Thai or skilled street fighter will fight at other range you not use to or you have little to no training on that fighting range.

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I would say that is exactly your theme shown in the street fighter vs. karate girl vid. She exhibits more towards the pure sport fighting convention of dart in & dart out, hitting with a speed shot on way in. Once inside & her speed shot/ combo is spent, street fighter grabs, stuffs, counter strikes around her moves....
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People look at what she does as indicative of Shotokan kumite point fighting--you will see the better Shotokan fighters at tournaments prepared to do more than the conventional, basic sortie in & out type exchange. The Shotokan karate syllabus is chocked with far more than, "jump-in with speed shot /or/ snap out speed kick and back off" routine.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have read mix reviews that some kung fu and karate do not do well fighting MMA fighter, boxer, Muay Thai, skilled street fighter.

Not because kung fu and karate style is bad, it is the fighting style is so different.

Many other people talk about fighting range and distance is very different.

Like wing chun you almost at the person face.Where a boxer would hit you before you got into fighting range. Likewise some karate like Okinawan karate.

A boxer would hit Okinawan karate person before they got into fighting range to do any moves on the boxer.

Look into students of Mss Oyama fighting Muay Thai people

 

[K-man]

The problem with karate blocks that I've seen is they can be slow and difficult to execute against a combination attack. They also seem like they'd be hard to pull off against an opponent that is in a tight range like a boxer that moves in tight and throws hooks. Of course kyukoshin seems to use a tight cover much like a boxers, so it's reasonable to assume other versions of karate have a similiar approach.

And herein lies the truth of karate 'blocks'. They aren't blocks and if you try to use them as blocks against someone with boxing experience you will be hit. That is why Kyokushin use the boxer-like cover and why you don't see 'karate blocks' in top class tournaments.

 

[Danny T]

In total agreement K-man unfortunately there are many who have not been taught this. They call it a block so it must be a block. They are not blocks they are attacks, parries, controlling actions.

 

[ShotoNoob]

And herein lies the truth of karate 'blocks'. They aren't blocks and if you try to use them as blocks against someone with boxing experience you will be hit. That is why Kyokushin use the boxer-like cover and why you don't see 'karate blocks' in top class tournaments.

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Again, this is an over-generalization. The Master I am working with on developing a Karate for MMA program @ our organization used to believe as you. I have shown him otherwise. Other traditional karate sites, TMA cover this issue.
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Kyo didn't originally use the boxer cover. Kyo drew so many types who want to do full contact sparring and moved away from the traditional Shotokan-type curriculum. So they went to the more practical boxer-like cover because it was reactive, easier to learn & use.
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The Japanese karate blocks are sound when practiced to standards, the "mental clarity" standard. And secondly, employed in the proper technical way. A lapse in either of these, and the Japanese traditional karate blocks are a disaster. But that's because you have an unskilled individual attempting to use them....
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I understand the Okinawans may well have intended blocks to be strikes, or double as strikes. In the fundamentals sense though, blocks are blocks. Taking them to the striking application is an advanced technical area, IMO.
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Many, many karateka are caught up in the conventions of sport karate, kickboxing, etc. Neither of these is traditional karate.

 

[K-man]

|The Japanese karate blocks are sound when practiced to standards, the "mental clarity" standard. And secondly, employed in the proper technical way. A lapse in either of these, and the Japanese traditional karate blocks are a disaster. But that's because you have an unskilled individual attempting to use them....

I understand the Okinawans may well have intended blocks to be strikes, or double as strikes. In the fundamentals sense though, blocks are blocks. Taking them to the striking application is an advanced technical area, IMO.

I have yet to find a person that can use a proper karate 'block' to stop a proper punch from fighting range. Karate came from Kung fu and the principle of deflect and attack in the same movement is the core of all the 'blocks'. There is enough material in the public domain for all who are interested. But just one question. Why would you ever want to just stop (block) an attack? That just precipitates the next attack and you need to keep blocking until you have the opportunity to attack. It defies belief that karate would be the only martial art to embrace that concept.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I have yet to find a person that can use a proper karate 'block' to stop a proper punch from fighting range.

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When you have trained & observed pure traditionalists, there are those who can actually block. Is the traditional way of karate blocking common in competition fighting? NOOOOOO. So I am in concert with your view when it comes to convention. Convention is

Karate came from Kung fu and the principle of deflect and attack in the same movement is the core of all the 'blocks'. There is enough material in the public domain for all who are interested.

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The application you speak is a part of the Chinese kung way, but it does not define traditional Chinese Kung fu blocking. My first TMA instructor taught what I am stating.... as did his Master, as did his Master from China. My definition encompasses your application, but goes beyond.

But just one question. Why would you ever want to just stop (block) an attack? That just precipitates the next attack and you need to keep blocking until you have the opportunity to attack. It defies belief that karate would be the only martial art to embrace that concept.

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Well, it depends on the situation. Of course everyone should agree that the type of hand striking & simultaneous blocking shown by say Wing Chun is better effectiveness. Yet not all can excel to YOUR level. There's loads written about Wing Chun FAIL in MMA. On the contrary, I think good Wing Chun would absolutely destroy a Shogun Rua. Based on my experience, I think REAL Wing Chun is very difficult to obtain. That's why I advocate Shotokan for MMA, it's more fundamental, less complicated. A KISS karate if you will. As the potential of the style, Shotokan karate pales against Wing Chun.
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People are so eager to be the 1st to excel @ TMA that they fail to build a foundation on TMA principles. The marital strategy of a block is DEFENSE. The martial strategy of a strike is OFFENSE. In the 1st instance, I stop harm to myself. In the 2nd, I harm my assailant. This is one of the great lessons (IMO) of Funakoshi's Karate-Jutsu. SIMPLIFY & ACHIEVE, vs complicate & fail.
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Now to the a simple fighting Kihon combo. Block, stops the attack: then counter strike, disable the attacker. You end up unharmed, the assailant is disabled. It's a simple TMA thesis.
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What is the status of blocking across the gamut of TMA practice? Mediocre to HORRENDOUS. Various karate traditional masters bemoan this all the time.

 

[K-man]

|Well, it depends on the situation. Of course everyone should agree that the type of hand striking & simultaneous blocking shown by say Wing Chun is better effectiveness. Yet not all can excel to YOUR level. There's loads written about Wing Chun FAIL in MMA. On the contrary, I think good Wing Chun would absolutely destroy a Shogun Rua. Based on my experience, I think REAL Wing Chun is very difficult to obtain. That's why I advocate Shotokan for MMA, it's more fundamental, less complicated. A KISS karate if you will. As the potential of the style, Shotokan karate pales against Wing Chun.

Perhaps we can cut the crap of YOUR level. I teach this to white belts from day one. We train kihon but they learn the application from the beginning. As to what you advocate for MMA, I wouldn't know as it is nothing to do with my mindset or training. I'm talking about the training you need to be safe in your own environment.

 

[ShotoNoob]

TANG SOO DO--DEFENSE STRIKE:
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Some new poster was looking into TKD, another mentioned TSD. Go I YT'd the latter with combo.
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The TSD Master calls this "Fighting Combo #1." Kihon karate presents this @ beginner level. Simple application strategy.

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Note, the vid shows K-man's (cut-the-crap) application. It shoud be apparent I'm presenting a balanced view of both sides.... guess not.
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The point is the strike follows on immediately on the block. Hence in the block-defense scenario, the exchange is presumably ended by the reverse punch in this straight forward depiction.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Perhaps we can cut the crap of YOUR level. I teach this to white belts from day one. We train kihon but they learn the application from the beginning. As to what you advocate for MMA, I wouldn't know as it is nothing to do with my mindset or training. I'm talking about the training you need to be safe in your own environment.

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Well on the MMA, I like to think of karate working in that environment.... have posted on my support for same.
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This isn't an ego battle. There's plenty a karate practitioner in my area including my school who feel other arts are too difficult to become proficient at. So we do a more basic karate style. Your response is disrespectful to people making practical choices.
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What you present to your students is sound according to your curriculum. So go with that.
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EDIT: Note the TSD stylists in my vid are high ranking senior belts. I don't see block-breaks in the standard black-belt karate curriculum...

 

[punisher73]

I have yet to find a person that can use a proper karate 'block' to stop a proper punch from fighting range. Karate came from Kung fu and the principle of deflect and attack in the same movement is the core of all the 'blocks'. There is enough material in the public domain for all who are interested. But just one question. Why would you ever want to just stop (block) an attack? That just precipitates the next attack and you need to keep blocking until you have the opportunity to attack. It defies belief that karate would be the only martial art to embrace that concept.

I think it's mainly because people don't understand what it is they are trying to accomplish with the movements. I was always taught that the opposite hand as it "retraces" and retracts as the main hand "blocks" is where the softer parry movement is. To use a kenpo term, it is the minor movement before the major.

Second, it's because modern training says it's a "block", which in okinawan karate it was just a movement with application potential, one of which was a block. You were training multiple applications for one motion. For example, if the distance is a little bit longer, it is a parry with one hand and then limb destruction with the "blocking hand" to the limb. If it is closer, it is a trap with the one hand and a hammerfist to the jaw with the "blocking hand".

Lastly, "traditional karate" as it was practiced on Okinawan was designed as a civilian self-defense system. It assumed a much closer distance than the later japanese style karate that was designed around kendo sword fighting distance. Trying to implement the close range techniques that it was designed around to a longer distance doesn't always translate well. This is why in SOME schools of Japanese karate there is a big disconnect between their sparring practices and kata applications.