Why is Eskrima (and FMA as a whole) full of Catholic practises despite HEMA and other European Swordsmanship Reconstruction neglecting Christianity?

[Bullsherdog]

Inspired by a post I saw. And as a SouthEast Asia (though not Filipino) who comes from in a country where Catholics are a minority and lives with Muslim neighbors who practise Silat as well as expat Pinoys of various backgrounds including Eskrimadors and other FMA practitioners, I've been provoked to ask after reading the below link.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/comments/hgf33i/does_anyone_think

Many fighters in the Philippines (and not just local styles but even boxers) frequently ask for intercession of Archangel Michael daily and some practitioners take it another level with novenas, etc.

Despite the fact that Eskrima and other FMA styles barely even say anything about Catholicism. While most surviving HEMA texts often mention Saints and traditions like rosary, etc. Even by the 19th century after the French Revolution brought a steady decline of the Church's power in Europe, manuals still mention prayers every now and than.

Despite that, it seems people who practise reconstruction of extinct European system not only completely ignores all these stuff but even are openly against the very Catholic sacraments that Medieval knights would have done!

Why despite the oldest texts of FMA in particular Eskrima lacking Catholic devotions and most organizations completely avoiding demanding the traditional Catholic sacraments, plenty of FMA practitioners make it a norm having Catholic practises in their schools esp having statues of Saint Michael? How come HEMA and other European reconstruction systems seems to be anti-religious in comparison despite the frequent mention of saints and Mary in texts even "magical Catholicism"?

I find it extremely ironic that a country so far away from Europe (being the only truly colonized territory of a European superpower in Asia for a long time) actually does the old traditions that the forefathers who wrote HEMA manuals would have done! And not just that but even across Latin America despite lacking a wide culture of organized fighting systems in the vein of Eastern martial arts, they also do keep the mysticism and spirituality that the European Knights who made these systems would have practised when they were alive! That modern people who say they practise HEMA absolutely avoids spirituality while colonized peoples in South America and the Philippines practically for the most part ironically keep a lot of HEMA's tradition more authentically!

And as a SEA Catholic this is what I observed with nearby neighbors from the PH in my country.

Why is this?

 

[drop bear]

Missionary's.

New Zealand does the same thing.

 

[ap Oweyn]

Inspired by a post I saw. And as a SouthEast Asia (though not Filipino) who comes from in a country where Catholics are a minority and lives with Muslim neighbors who practise Silat as well as expat Pinoys of various backgrounds including Eskrimadors and other FMA practitioners, I've been provoked to ask after reading the below link.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/comments/hgf33i/does_anyone_think

Many fighters in the Philippines (and not just local styles but even boxers) frequently ask for intercession of Archangel Michael daily and some practitioners take it another level with novenas, etc.

Despite the fact that Eskrima and other FMA styles barely even say anything about Catholicism. While most surviving HEMA texts often mention Saints and traditions like rosary, etc. Even by the 19th century after the French Revolution brought a steady decline of the Church's power in Europe, manuals still mention prayers every now and than.

Despite that, it seems people who practise reconstruction of extinct European system not only completely ignores all these stuff but even are openly against the very Catholic sacraments that Medieval knights would have done!

Why despite the oldest texts of FMA in particular Eskrima lacking Catholic devotions and most organizations completely avoiding demanding the traditional Catholic sacraments, plenty of FMA practitioners make it a norm having Catholic practises in their schools esp having statues of Saint Michael? How come HEMA and other European reconstruction systems seems to be anti-religious in comparison despite the frequent mention of saints and Mary in texts even "magical Catholicism"?

I find it extremely ironic that a country so far away from Europe (being the only truly colonized territory of a European superpower in Asia for a long time) actually does the old traditions that the forefathers who wrote HEMA manuals would have done! And not just that but even across Latin America despite lacking a wide culture of organized fighting systems in the vein of Eastern martial arts, they also do keep the mysticism and spirituality that the European Knights who made these systems would have practised when they were alive! That modern people who say they practise HEMA absolutely avoids spirituality while colonized peoples in South America and the Philippines practically for the most part ironically keep a lot of HEMA's tradition more authentically!

And as a SEA Catholic this is what I observed with nearby neighbors from the PH in my country.

Why is this?

I think it's just a question of conflating people and practices. FMA is a practice. But practices are manifest through people. So people are going to bring their "things" with them. I don't view FMA as being Catholic, but my first teachers were devoutly so. In fact, one of my first teachers went on to become a priest in residence at The Vatican. But that's a reflection of them as people, not the style itself.

They didn't incorporate Catholicism into the classes overtly. But they wore depictions of the saints around their necks. (I forget the term for this item, but you may know. Apologies.) We didn't open the class with prayer or anything, but I certainly saw plenty of prayer when spending time with them outside the class. It's just who they were as people. And we bring ourselves to the class, whether we mean to or not.

Now me, I'm not religious. I'm interested in religion, but I don't follow any faith tradition. So, when I teach, there's not a hint of that in "my" FMA. Nor has there been any hint of that when I've trained boxing (despite some number of boxers crossing themselves before a bout or thanking God for their victories). Styles exist through people. Maybe it's then easy to conflate those styles with the people who shared them.

The point is that Catholicism is very much a living, breathing tradition among many of those who teach FMA. Simple as that.

With HEMA, it's the opposite. It was a living tradition at the time of those writings. And, obviously, it's still a living tradition. But Western Europe isn't saturated in it. So, when new practitioners go back and revisit those writings, they're looking for something specific (Western martial technique) without walking around with that lens of Christianity firmly in place.

Again, it comes down to people. If the people who go looking for the Western martial tradition aren't doing so with a Christian disposition, then it won't be manifest in their teachings.

Since 1989, I've trained primarily with Filipino teachers (though not exclusively) in the U.S. And Catholicism was "in the air" in one case. Not in the other. But in neither case was it explicitly presented as part of the style.

 

[Holmejr]

Justo Takayama Ukon was a devout Christian samurai! And there were others as well.

After the religious crusades you then have the enlightenment which prompted the decline of the church and the seeds of the corruption of Europe we see today. Today of course we see the rise of Christian atheism in the west, so none of this is surprising. In the Philippines you have much poverty and like in SA and parts of Africa you have folks finding refuge in traditional organized religions whether Christian or Muslim. The Oracion and Anting-anting are kinda like blending the occult with Catholicism or sumptin’ like that…I think the younger crowds are moving away from all of that. I happen to be Christian but don’t teach it as part of the physical martial art. Loving your neighbor as yourself an important part of teaching character building, but it’s a bit deeper than most folks think. Sounds good though…

 

[isshinryuronin]

about Catholicism. While most surviving HEMA texts often mention Saints and traditions like rosary, etc. Even by the 19th century after the French Revolution brought a steady decline of the Church's power in Europe, manuals still mention prayers every now and than.

Despite that, it seems people who practise reconstruction of extinct European system not only completely ignores all these stuff but even are openly against the very Catholic sacraments that Medieval knights would h,ave done!

During the time of medieval European knights, the Church held great sway, even to the extent that the knights were considered agents of the Church (doing God's work). It was only natural for them (and most of the population) to closely embrace Church doctrine. As Holmejr pointed out, as time went by, and everyday life was less dependent on the organized religion, this aspect was less seen in HEMA. In certain Third World countries religion is still heavily ingrained in the population so it's natural they still insert it into their MA.

I think it's important to use the word "insert" when talking about religion and MA. While historically, the former provided motivation as to whom to apply the MA against, it didn't affect the execution of that MA. There is no Catholic way (or Muslim or Jewish) to wield a sword. I think when Catholics and Protestants did battle against each other there was no difference in their combat technique. Similarly, in regard to painting or playing the mandolin, the technique used by Catholic or Protestant artists were similar, though the subject matter may have differed. It doesn't matter what medallion they choose to wear around their neck or who they pray to.

Eastern MA is a bit of a different case.

 

[Haruhiko]

Inspired by a post I saw. And as a SouthEast Asia (though not Filipino) who comes from in a country where Catholics are a minority and lives with Muslim neighbors who practise Silat as well as expat Pinoys of various backgrounds including Eskrimadors and other FMA practitioners, I've been provoked to ask after reading the below link.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/comments/hgf33i/does_anyone_think

Many fighters in the Philippines (and not just local styles but even boxers) frequently ask for intercession of Archangel Michael daily and some practitioners take it another level with novenas, etc.

Despite the fact that Eskrima and other FMA styles barely even say anything about Catholicism. While most surviving HEMA texts often mention Saints and traditions like rosary, etc. Even by the 19th century after the French Revolution brought a steady decline of the Church's power in Europe, manuals still mention prayers every now and than.

Despite that, it seems people who practise reconstruction of extinct European system not only completely ignores all these stuff but even are openly against the very Catholic sacraments that Medieval knights would have done!

Why despite the oldest texts of FMA in particular Eskrima lacking Catholic devotions and most organizations completely avoiding demanding the traditional Catholic sacraments, plenty of FMA practitioners make it a norm having Catholic practises in their schools esp having statues of Saint Michael? How come HEMA and other European reconstruction systems seems to be anti-religious in comparison despite the frequent mention of saints and Mary in texts even "magical Catholicism"?

I find it extremely ironic that a country so far away from Europe (being the only truly colonized territory of a European superpower in Asia for a long time) actually does the old traditions that the forefathers who wrote HEMA manuals would have done! And not just that but even across Latin America despite lacking a wide culture of organized fighting systems in the vein of Eastern martial arts, they also do keep the mysticism and spirituality that the European Knights who made these systems would have practised when they were alive! That modern people who say they practise HEMA absolutely avoids spirituality while colonized peoples in South America and the Philippines practically for the most part ironically keep a lot of HEMA's tradition more authentically!

And as a SEA Catholic this is what I observed with nearby neighbors from the PH in my country.

Why is this?

Via wiki:
Some authors state that these Filipino Martial Arts were also cross-trained with martial arts brought over by Spanish soldiers and Jesuit priests.[47]

Saint Michael is the patron saint of defending the Church, military, and a host of other things. At the time there was enormous tension between Spain and the Islamic caliphates (centuries at this point) and Saint Michael was commonly used in devotions to defend the poor, crush the enemies of the Church, and... he had a sword. Given to him by God. No one else got a God-sword, so there's that to consider.

When Spain, and by extension the Church, wanted to consolidate its power across the Philippines, they found it useful to introduce Western military practices. The Jesuit order was closely tied to most Catholic military endeavours - giving them the moniker "Soldiers of Christ".

The Jesuits were also missionaries who valued formal education regardless of one's status in society. This allowed the native Filipino population to develop a martial pedagogy unavoidably Catholic in nature.

As for Mary, she's the Yin to Saint Michael's Yang if you want to look at it that way.

And as for HEMA being anti-religious, I think the Holy Roman Empire would have something to say about that. The oldest surviving manuscript on fencing was written by a cleric, and a lot of fencers (as well as their treatises) were patronised by the HRE.

One could even argue that without the HRE, we wouldn't even have HEMA.