Why I love Capitalism

Well. I did "do my own google" and almost every educational resource on egalitarian societies states that they pretty much only work on small scale and predominantly on a system that uses social pressures to hold people down to their "equal" roles...not something I think will ever work on a modern scale (theres a reason society developed out of them) or would even want to attempt.



http://www.thekennedylegacy.com/c4a.html
Helmut Schoeck, in his book, Envy, A Theory of Social Behaviour, goes on to explain that egalitarian societies fail to prevent envy because there can never truly be an "absolutely egalitarian society. . ." In fact, egalitarian societies increase the feelings of envy. Since its citizens expect to all be equal, they envy anyone who has any advantage or talent superior to their own. The tendency to give American children exaggerated feelings of importance and the right to never have to suffer injustice makes them more vulnerable to the emotions of envy and revenge. They easily resent anyone who surpasses them or ridicules them. In their exaggerated sense of having been wronged, because they feel so very important, they justify their acts of revenge.
http://www.capital.demon.co.uk/LA/sociological/myth.txt
THE BONDS OF SOCIETY

These models have been criticised for their `evolutionary' nature.
They assume that there will be an inevitable movement from a
primitive to a more advanced form of society. This ignores the
inbuilt stabilising mechanisms of primitive society which conspire
to preserve the status quo.

These stabilising mechanisms are best illustrated by reference to
the egalitarian/band society. The egalitarian society has no forces
of overt social control. There is no army, no police force, prisons
or state institutions. This however represents no libertarian "state
of nature". On the contrary, the egalitarian polity is the most
heavily governed and anti-individualistic of all societies. The
bonds binding society together so firmly are those of magic,
superstition, taboo and powerful social obligation.

In such a society, maintained by a complex web of taboos there is no
need for government institutions to maintain the law as the breaking
of taboo is met by lethal supernatural sanction. Certain New Guinea
tribes, for instance, until recent times believed that individuals
involved mining stone for tool making who worked harder and gained
more than their fellows would suffer from the deadly vengeance of
the mine's tutelary spirits.

As well as being pinned down by a web of taboo the individual in the
egalitarian society is further restricted by the force of kin group
obligation. In the egalitarian society the kin is the primary
political/ social unit. The kin group acts to support and give
identity to the individual. If, however, an individual starts to
rise above the tribal norm and assert his individuality, then the
kin group acts to pull him back. Increased social obligation
dissipates his resources and energies. The individual is forced to
carry the dead weight of society on his back.

Such restraints acted to hold an egalitarian society stable in
Aboriginal Australia for 25,000 years.
 
Sharp Phil said:
It is evilto presume to tell people what they owe you based on what you think you have contributed. That is greed and envy talking. That is immoral -- and hence, evil. You believe you have some sort of moral superiority, that you are "selfless," and that you deserve to benefit based on your selfless contributions. This is false -- and morally repugnant.

COULDN'T agree more Phil.

Your Brother
John
 
Sharp Phil said:
It is evil for you to presume to tell people what they owe you based on what you think you have contributed. That is greed and envy talking. That is immoral -- and hence, evil. You believe you have some sort of moral superiority, that you are "selfless," and that you deserve to benefit based on your selfless contributions. This is false -- and morally repugnant.
But I'm not telling people what I'm worth. I'm not expecting anything. I am totally at the mercy of others and I have have faith that they will help me. Nothing more. I contribute everything I can to society and everyone else contributes and we all willingly take care of each other. Sorry, but there is no envy or greed in this structure and it is a form of collectivism.
 
Sounds like something you are making up as you go along..is there any documentation/examples of this "structure" of society you are describing?
 
Tgace said:
Well. I did "do my own google" and almost every educational resource on egalitarian societies states that they pretty much only work on small scale and predominantly on a system that uses social pressures to hold people down to their "equal" roles...not something I think will ever work on a modern scale (theres a reason society developed out of them) or would even want to attempt.



http://www.thekennedylegacy.com/c4a.html

http://www.capital.demon.co.uk/LA/sociological/myth.txt
Again, you may want to check out the work of Jared Diamond. Egalitarianism didn't fail because of a failure of the system. It failed for other reasons...geographic determinism for one. We are stuck with capitalism not because it is the best system, but because of other environmental factors.
 
Tgace said:
Sounds like something you are making up as you go along..is there any documentation/examples of this "structure" of society you are describing?
Yes, there is plenty of research on this. Google away. But do you even want to see it? That is the real question. This stuff challenges the basic principles that we've been taught since our births. In school and in religion we are constantly being corrected because we are bad. What if that isn't true? What if our society teaches us to be bad and then punishes us for it? I think people would feel pretty ticked off about that...
 
But I'm not telling people what I'm worth. I'm not expecting anything.

There's no point in discussing anything with you if you're going to keep changing your story. First you say you deserve to benefit from what you've "given" to society; now you say you're not expecting anything. I suspect you don't really know what you believe, ultimately -- except for the fact that you want what you haven't earned.
 
And somehow you, the voice in the wilderness, has discovered this major flaw in western culture? I think Marx and a few others beat you to it....hasnt proven too successful IMO.
 
We are "naturally" egalitarian? I dont think so..Even Marx's idea was that a change in the "ensemble of social relations" can change "the human essence." Whats our "essence"?

http://www.cato.org/research/articles/wilkinson-050201.html

We are Coalitional

The size of hunter-gather bands in the EEA ranged from 25 to about 150 people. The small size of those groups ensured that everyone would know everyone else; that social interactions would be conducted face-to-face; and that reputations for honesty, hard work, and reliability would be common knowledge. Even today, people's address books usually contain no more than 150 names. And military squadrons generally contain about as many people as Pleistocene hunting expeditions.

Experiments by psychologists Leda Cosmides and Robert Kurzban have shown that human beings have specialized abilities to track shifting alliances and coalitions, and are eager to define others as inside or outside their own groups. Coalitional categories can easily lead to violence and war between groups. Think of Hutus and Tutsis, Albanians and Serbs, Shiites and Sunnis, Crips and the Bloods, and so on ad nauseam. However, coalitional categories are fairly fluid. Under the right circumstances, we can learn to care more about someone's devotion to the Red Sox or Yankees than their skin color, religion, or social class.

We cannot, however, consistently think of ourselves as members only of that one grand coalition: the Brotherhood of Mankind. Our disposition to think in terms of "us" versus "them" is irremediable and it has unavoidable political implications. Populist and racialist political rhetoric encourages people to identify themselves as primarily rich or poor, black or white. It is important to avoid designing institutions, such as racial preference programs, that reinforce coalitional categories that have no basis in biology and may heighten some of the tensions they are meant to relax. A great deal of the animosity toward free trade, to take a different example, depends on economically and morally inappropriate coalitional distinctions between workers in Baltimore (us) and workers in Bangalore (them). Positively, free trade is laudable for the way it encourages us to see to members of unfamiliar groups as partners, not enemies.

We are Hierarchical

Like many animals and all primates, humans form hierarchies of dominance. It is easy to recognize social hierarchies in modern life. Corporations, government, chess clubs, and churches all have formal hierarchical structures of officers. Informal structures of dominance and status may be the leading cause of tears in junior high students.

The dynamics of dominance hierarchies in the EEA was complex. Hierarchies play an important role in guiding collective efforts and distributing scarce resources without having to resort to violence. Daily affairs run more smoothly if everyone knows what is expected of him. However, space at the top of the hierarchy is scarce and a source of conflict and competition. Those who command higher status in social hierarchies have better access to material resources and mating opportunities. Thus, evolution favors the psychology of males and females who are able successfully to compete for positions of dominance.

Living at the bottom of the dominance heap is a raw deal, and we are not built to take it lying down. There is evidence that lower status males naturally form coalitions to check the power of more dominant males and to achieve relatively egalitarian distribution of resources. In his book Hierarchy in the Forest, anthropologist Christopher Boehm calls these coalitions against the powerful "reverse dominance hierarchies."

Emory professor of economics and law Paul Rubin usefully distinguishes between "productive" and "allocative" hierarchies. Productive hierarchies are those that organize cooperative efforts to achieve otherwise unattainable mutually advantageous gains. Business organizations are a prime example. Allocative hierarchies, on the other hand, exist mainly to transfer resources to the top. Aristocracies and dictatorships are extreme examples. Although the nation-state can perform productive functions, there is the constant risk that it becomes dominated by allocative hierarchies. Rubin warns that our natural wariness of zero-sum allocative hierarchies, which helps us to guard against the concentration of power in too few hands, is often directed at modern positive-sum productive hierarchies, like corporations, thereby threatening the viability of enterprises that tend to make everyone better off.

There is no way to stop dominance-seeking behavior. We may hope only to channel it to non-harmful uses. A free society therefore requires that positions of dominance and status be widely available in a multitude of productive hierarchies, and that opportunities for greater status and dominance through predation are limited by the constant vigilance of "the people"Ā—the ultimate reverse dominance hierarchy. A flourishing civil society permits almost everyone to be the leader of something, whether the local Star Trek fan club or the city council or a Black Belt???(my addition), thereby somewhat satisfying the human taste for hierarchical status, but to no one's serious detriment.

We are Envious Zero-sum Thinkers

Perhaps the most depressing lesson of evolutionary psychology for politics is found in its account of the deep-seated human capacity for envy and, related, of our difficulty in understanding the idea of gains from trade and increases in productivityĀ—the idea of an ever-expanding "pie" of wealth.

There is evidence that greater skill and initiative could lead to higher status and bigger shares of resources for an individual in the EEA. But because of the social nature of hunting and gathering, the fact that food spoiled quickly, and the utter absence of privacy, the benefits of individual success in hunting or foraging could not be easily internalized by the individual, and were expected to be shared. The EEA was for the most part a zero-sum world, where increases in total wealth through invention, investment, and extended economic exchange were totally unknown. More for you was less for me. Therefore, if anyone managed to acquire a great deal more than anyone else, that was pretty good evidence that theirs was a stash of ill-gotten gains, acquired by cheating, stealing, raw force, or, at best, sheer luck. Envy of the disproportionately wealthy may have helped to reinforce generally adaptive norms of sharing and to help those of lower status on the dominance hierarchy guard against further predation by those able to amass power.

Our zero-sum mentality makes it hard for us to understand how trade and investment can increase the amount of total wealth. We are thus ill-equipped to easily understand our own economic system.

These features of human natureĀ—that we are coalitional, hierarchical, and envious zero-sum thinkersĀ—would seem to make liberal capitalism extremely unlikely. And it is. However, the benefits of a liberal market order can be seen in a few further features of the human mind and social organization in the EEA.

Property Rights are Natural

The problem of distributing scarce resources can be handled in part by implicitly coercive allocative hierarchies. An alternative solution to the problem of distribution is the recognition and enforcement of property rights. Property rights are prefigured in nature by the way animals mark out territories for their exclusive use in foraging, hunting, and mating. Recognition of such rudimentary claims to control and exclude minimizes costly conflict, which by itself provides a strong evolutionary reason to look for innate tendencies to recognize and respect norms of property.

New scientific research provides even stronger evidence for the existence of such property "instincts." For example, recent experimental work by Oliver Goodenough, a legal theorist, and Christine Prehn, a neuroscientist, suggests that the human mind evolved specialized modules for making judgments about moral transgressions, and transgressions against property in particular.

Evolutionary psychology can help us to understand that property rights are not created simply by strokes of the legislator's pen.

Mutually Beneficial Exchange is Natural

Trade and mutually beneficial exchange are human universals, as is the division of labor. In their groundbreaking paper, "Cognitive Adaptations for Social Exchange," Cosmides and Tooby point out that, contrary to widespread belief, hunter-gatherer life is not "a kind of retro-utopia" of "indiscriminate, egalitarian cooperation and sharing." The archeological and ethnographic evidence shows that hunter-gatherers were involved in numerous forms of trade and exchange. Some forms of hunter-gatherer trading can involve quite complex specialization and the interaction of supply and demand.

Most impressive, Cosmides and Tooby have shown through a series of experiments that human beings are able easily to solve complex logical puzzles involving reciprocity, the accounting of costs and benefits, and the detection of people who have cheated on agreements. However, we are unable to solve formally identical puzzles that do not deal with questions of social exchange. That, they argue, points to the existence of "functionally specialized, content-dependent cognitive adaptations for social exchange."

In other words, the human mind is "built" to trade.
 
upnorthkyosa said:
I'm not expecting anything.

I contribute everything I can to society and everyone else contributes and we all willingly take care of each other.

Sounds like you ARE expecting something here, you are expecting Everyone to agree with you and expecting us all therefore to "give willingly". You can't "Will" for another person. You can't tell me or others what we should "Willingly" do. That, I think, is an impossibility.

Your Brother
John
 
Tgace said:
Yes. I cant see how this Utopia can be established...
Of course you can't. You have been taught that it is impossible. People are greedy selfish beasts. They could never just agree to help each other out...could they?

This little discussion will have no bearing on reality because capitalism is where we are at now. However, it isn't the only system and it isn't even the best system.
 
You're free to agree to help others out of your selfless moral superiority any time you like. The problem is that you advocate forcing others to do so regardless of their wishes. But, hey, at least you get to feel good about how great and selfless you are while you're volunteering others' labors for them.
 
Sharp Phil said:
There's no point in discussing anything with you if you're going to keep changing your story. First you say you deserve to benefit from what you've "given" to society; now you say you're not expecting anything. I suspect you don't really know what you believe, ultimately -- except for the fact that you want what you haven't earned.
Changing my story? You are the one who is changing it. This argument that you are having is all in your head. It's the argument that you want to have, but are not getting. I think that you are forgetting the parts where I completely agreed with you. People can choose to live for each other and not for themselves. And this happens on small scales. Why not larger? Perhaps it is just a failure of imagination? Perhaps it is a failure to challenge what we know and have been taught? I don't know if it would work, because so much of this hypothetical. It just seems more palatable then the self interest of capitalism.
 
Sharp Phil said:
The problem is that you advocate forcing others to do so regardless of their wishes.
No I'm not, but you can keep on thinking that. Everybody chooses for themselves. It doesn't get much clearer then that.
 
You contradict yourself every time someone refutes one of your posts. Changing your story constantly to deny that you've said what you've said is certainly what one expects from utopian socialists.
 
upnorthkyosa said:
I don't know if it would work, because so much of this hypothetical. It just seems more palatable then the self interest of capitalism.
Hence the pointlessness of this discussion...its about palatability rather than reality. Of course the countless centuries of human history show the "brotherhood of mankind" principle in sparkling clarity.
 
Sharp Phil said:
You contradict yourself every time someone refutes one of your posts. Changing your story constantly to deny that you've said what you've said is certainly what one expects from utopian socialists.
Well, I took a look at this thread, again, just to be sure. Contraditions? Refutations? Sorry, but no. You are fantasizing. And projecting. Oh well...its just the internet.
 
Tgace said:
Hence the pointlessness of this discussion...its about palatability rather than reality. Of course the countless centuries of human history show the "brotherhood of mankind" principle in sparkling clarity.
I wouldn't say pointless. I think its important to challenge your beliefs so that one holds little doubt about the truth. Capitalism isn't going away anytime soon. Love it, hate it, it doesn't matter. Learn its rules so that you can be successful and attempt to be happy. And, if you feel so inclined, work to change the system...
 
upnorthkyosa said:
Changing my story? You are the one who is changing it. This argument that you are having is all in your head. It's the argument that you want to have, but are not getting. I think that you are forgetting the parts where I completely agreed with you. People can choose to live for each other and not for themselves. And this happens on small scales. Why not larger? Perhaps it is just a failure of imagination? Perhaps it is a failure to challenge what we know and have been taught? I don't know if it would work, because so much of this hypothetical. It just seems more palatable then the self interest of capitalism.
The "self-interest" of captialism IS choosing to live for each other. It is capitalism, and all that goes with it, that has BROUGHT prosperity to the western world. If not for the selfish mindset that evolved in to capitalism, there would be nothing but a brutish, savage world, slave mentality world devoid of progress. Selfishness is not a vice, if it is the kind of selfishness that leads us to do what is in our own best interest. Selfishness drives us to excell, to produce and create. God help us if we ever inherit a world filled with selfless, passive people. We will be preparing for the decline and fall of our species.
 
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