Why I love Capitalism

[Tgace]

http://www.stonemarmot.com/rantrave/rantscap.html

 

[Don Roley]

No. It is an informed opinion. It is a distillation of the thoughts of many greater thinkers then myself. Unfettered capitalism reduces everything to units of commerace and prime motivator of the system is self gratification.

In other words, you made it up. Call it a distalation or whatever, you made it up.

Perhaps we can deal with something else you wrote.

In other words, self gratification through units of commerace.

First of all, there is nothing in a capitalistic society that precludes you from devoting yourself to others. You have that freedom. You can join a commune in a capitalistic society or put the good of others above your own. You can't do the opposite in any other type of society. So 'self gratification' is not a part of capitalistic societies per se, but if someone wished to chase the almighty dollar- unless there is a direct, negative impact on others, who has the moral right to deny them that?

Lets look at this more closely through something else you said.

If you wish to forbid negative impacts, then you are fettering the system and imposing your own moral point of view upon it. It is not pre-existing or self-evident in anyway

The only morals that are imposed are those that have an impact on you. And society comes together to enforce those rules for everyone in a moral society. Saying that you can't rob me is a moral judgement as you say. It is driven by self interest since I don't want to be robbed. What the robber does has a direct impact on me. And I want a society that will prevent that type of thing from happening.

But I do not want someone imposing their morals on me by telling me the type of lover I can have, or the items I can consume or anything else that does not impact an unwilling participent. If someone wants to make beer in a capitalist society, that is their right. But their factory can't polute others people's air.

This is the minimum goverment intrusion possible while still keeping society from slipping into anarchy. That is what capitalists strive for and why I support it.

 

[Tgace]

http://net.valenciacc.edu/forum/v01/v01.03.jchambless.htm

For a family of four to be considered poor in America this year, they will have to earn just under $19,000 per year. Nineteen thousand dollars is more than the per capita income of every poor person in every nation in the world. In effect, America has the richest poor people in the world.​

If the 35 million people in America who consider themselves African-Americans were a nation to themselves, the total GDP of that nation would make African-Americans the fourteenth richest nation in the world.​

Moreover, women in the United States earn more money and have more CEO positions than in any nation in the world.​

How did this happen? If America was a socialistic nation with all of the burdens on entrepreneurship that this entails, poor people, minorities and women would have never had the opportunity to overcome socio-economic barriers.​

Only through capitalism do we see people of all economic backgrounds, colors and cultures have the opportunity to pursue money freely. Oprah Winfrey started out poor. She would still be poor if she lived in Africa as a woman.​

The people who started the FUBU company would have never had the chance to raise sufficient capital in Sweden or Spain. Capitalism does not guarantee an equal outcome, but only the opportunity to change your final outcome. Not all will succeed, but more do in the system based on self-love and private property than in any other system.​

​

 

[Tgace]

Hmmmm...apropos???


http://www.americandaily.com/article/5513
http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Educate/public_school_nightmare.htm

 

[Makalakumu]

In other words, you made it up. Call it a distalation or whatever, you made it up.

No. It's my understanding, informed by people who are much more learned then I am. There is absolutely no redefining of the term as you imply. All of these ideas are mainstream ideas that are five to ten times older then I am.

Otherwise, I agree with much of what you are saying. (I'll address some disagreements later)

I like capitalism, but I believe there needs to be limits. I think a balancing of the needs of the self and the needs of the whole produces a happier and more productive society.

Unfettered capitalism is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Makalakumu]

Hmmmm...apropos???


http://www.americandaily.com/article/5513
http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Educate/public_school_nightmare.htm

So, what are you trying to say with these peices? What is your point?

 

[Tgace]

That as someone who spent a good many years between Elementary, High School, College, Graduate School and teaching College level courses (as well as having a sister and best friend who are teachers). I have a handle on where some of these viewpoints originate (and stew).

BTW:
http://www.iamlost.com/features/smurfs/commies.shtml

 

[Don Roley]

No. It's my understanding, informed by people who are much more learned then I am. There is absolutely no redefining of the term as you imply. All of these ideas are mainstream ideas that are five to ten times older then I am.

Show quotes and cites then if that is true.

And among the people that are more learned than you that helped you come up with the definition of the central purpose of capitalism is Karl Marx. Using his definition of the purpose and ideals of capitalism is like using the KKK's defininition of the purpose and ideals of the NAACP.

Moreover, show me someone who extols capitalism that says that hiring someone to murder children is not immoral as you say it is. Or show the logical conclusion by which you reached that judgement.

The mainstream capitalists all say that there is a role for goverment and that there are morals to be upheld. The only thing that links all definitions of capitalism so far is that the goverment should not own the people and redistribute wealth.

 

[Tgace]

The mainstream capitalists all say that there is a role for goverment and that there are morals to be upheld. The only thing that links all definitions of capitalism so far is that the goverment should not own the people and redistribute wealth.

Yes...

 

[Makalakumu]

That as someone who spent a good many years between Elementary, High School, College, Graduate School and teaching College level courses (as well as having a sister and best friend who are teachers). I have a handle on where some of these viewpoints originate (and stew).

BTW:
http://www.iamlost.com/features/smurfs/commies.shtml

That may be so, but do you agree with the viewpoints presented in those articles? (yes, I'm putting you on the spot)

 

[Tgace]

That capitalism supports freedom or that the smurfs are part of a Communist conspiracy to brainwash children???

 

[Don Roley]

(yes, I'm putting you on the spot)

Well, if you want to talk about putting people on the spot over a funny article about Smurfs, why not let me put you on the spot for something more related to the discussion.

How can you call what you say capitalism is about "mainstream" when Adam Smith, the father of capitalism, does not promote it?

And I am still waiting on those cites and sources. Hopefully one will be Adam Smith.

 

[Makalakumu]

First of all, there is nothing in a capitalistic society that precludes you from devoting yourself to others. You have that freedom. You can join a commune in a capitalistic society or put the good of others above your own.

Market forces determine your choices in a capitalistic society. You are NOT always free to do what you want. If your choice is uneconomical or if you do not have the energy obtain your selfish desire, then it is not possible. For example, I would like to put solar panels on my house in order to generate my own power but it is not possible because I do not (yet) have the money to do so. Freedom?

You can't do the opposite in any other type of society.

Oh really? And I'm sure you've considered all of the possible societal configurations...

So 'self gratification' is not a part of capitalistic societies per se, but if someone wished to chase the almighty dollar- unless there is a direct, negative impact on others, who has the moral right to deny them that?

This does not follow. Self gratification is still essential in a capitalistic society. Otherwise, what would be the point of reducing everything down to units of commerace?

The only morals that are imposed are those that have an impact on you. And society comes together to enforce those rules for everyone in a moral society.

Here, you are collapsing concepts. Capitalism does not equal democracy. It is possible to have a capitalistic society that is not a democracy. In fact, it is easier. Morals limit the impact and effectiveness of competition and trade, they fetter capitalism. This is a good thing by the way...

But I do not want someone imposing their morals on me by telling me the type of lover I can have, or the items I can consume or anything else that does not impact an unwilling participent. If someone wants to make beer in a capitalist society, that is their right. But their factory can't polute others people's air.

I'm right with you here.

This is the minimum goverment intrusion possible while still keeping society from slipping into anarchy. That is what capitalists strive for and why I support it.

Actually, it looks you support a limited form of capitalism that resembles a social democracy...

 

[Makalakumu]

Well, if you want to talk about putting people on the spot over a funny article about Smurfs, why not let me put you on the spot for something more related to the discussion.

How can you call what you say capitalism is about "mainstream" when Adam Smith, the father of capitalism, does not promote it?

And I am still waiting on those cites and sources. Hopefully one will be Adam Smith.

I was referring to the other articles...

 

[Tgace]

The education articles?

Bits and pieces of them... Even back when I was in HS I recall that there was a signifigant chunk of "social education" and "teacher opinions" on politics, ecological issues (acid rain was going to end the world!) and everything else. Odd how they couldnt teach me how to pass my Trig. Regents Exam though......

 

[Don Roley]

Market forces determine your choices in a capitalistic society. You are NOT always free to do what you want. If your choice is uneconomical or if you do not have the energy obtain your selfish desire, then it is not possible. For example, I would like to put solar panels on my house in order to generate my own power but it is not possible because I do not (yet) have the money to do so. Freedom?

I see the problem is that you do not understand the meaning of freedom. Freedom means that no one is coming in and preventing you from doing what you like. Hence things like freedom of religion. It does not mean that you can do as you like to other people. Hence forcing others to refrain from listening to music like the Taliban did.

So capitalism is a means of freedom. You can't have a free society unless the means of production are free. You can make what wealth you desire if you can. No one owes you it.

Self gratification is still essential in a capitalistic society. Otherwise, what would be the point of reducing everything down to units of commerace?

You are slipping that assumption that everything is seen as units of commerce? Again- go read some Adam Smith.

Here, you are collapsing concepts. Capitalism does not equal democracy. It is possible to have a capitalistic society that is not a democracy. In fact, it is easier. Morals limit the impact and effectiveness of competition and trade, they fetter capitalism. This is a good thing by the way...

Again, how can you have a free society unless the economic aspect of it is not free? Mainstream proponents of capitalism do not deny that there is a role for capitalism. In fact, without a goverment to prevent others from taking through force, the idea of capitalism is doomed.

And yes, democracy does not equal capitalism. Thank goodness. You may note that some of the first limits on a pure democracy the Americans put through were the rights that are in the spirit that I laid out. No group, individual or goverment can stop you from doing things that has no impact on others. A pure democracy is mob rule and if you take away capitalism you have the majority coming in to take away by force from the minority.

 

[Makalakumu]

Show quotes and cites then if that is true.

Five minutes and quick google search could have answered your questions, but since you asked...

1. On Marx...
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Marxism.html

2. The disease of capitalism...
http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=22806&pid=1274

3. Wikipedia "Capitalism"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

4. Anarcho-capitalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

5. Assorted sources...
http://world.std.com/~mhuben/libindex.html

Pick and choose...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Criticism+of+Capitalism

And among the people that are more learned than you that helped you come up with the definition of the central purpose of capitalism is Karl Marx. Using his definition of the purpose and ideals of capitalism is like using the KKK's defininition of the purpose and ideals of the NAACP.

While Marx's solution has been proven wrong, his criticism still ring true. Your characterization shows that you haven't read much that he's written.

Moreover, show me someone who extols capitalism that says that hiring someone to murder children is not immoral as you say it is. Or show the logical conclusion by which you reached that judgement.

Not going to happen. People who extol capitalism, promote a limited form that is palatable to the public. The ugly stuff that Marx (and others) predicted goes on behind the scenes. Like Bolivia where all water was commodified!

 

[Don Roley]

People who extol capitalism, promote a limited form that is palatable to the public. The ugly stuff that Marx (and others) predicted goes on behind the scenes.

So, you are saying that people who advocate capitalism like myself, Adam Smith and the like are all lying and we have an ulterior motive?

I really don't know how to deal with someone that thinks that there is such a wide ranging conspiracy. I told you why I love capitalism and pointed you to the father of capitalism for a look at the mainstream and definition of capitalism. You respond by saying that we are all lying and only giving stuff that we know people will accept.

I asked you to give an example of a proponent for capitalism saying that the ultimate goal and purpose is as you say it is. Instead you post things by people that argue against capitalism and say that those that are for it are lying and not to be tursted.

Again, I really do not know how to deal with someone that thinks that you can't trust the word of anyone promoting capitalism.

 

[stephen]

Market forces determine your choices in a capitalistic society. You are NOT always free to do what you want. If your choice is uneconomical or if you do not have the energy obtain your selfish desire, then it is not possible. For example, I would like to put solar panels on my house in order to generate my own power but it is not possible because I do not (yet) have the money to do so. Freedom?

And it is free when the government comes to my house with a gun demanding that I give you the money to put up solar panels?

This does not follow. Self gratification is still essential in a capitalistic society. Otherwise, what would be the point of reducing everything down to units of commerace?

Maybe so that I know how many goats it's FAIR to give you for the nice shoes you made for me.

Here, you are collapsing concepts. Capitalism does not equal democracy. It is possible to have a capitalistic society that is not a democracy. In fact, it is easier. Morals limit the impact and effectiveness of competition and trade, they fetter capitalism. This is a good thing by the way...

Capitalism IS moral. Please see this message I wrote a bit back on a related topic: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=354889#post354889

/steve

 

[Gray Phoenix]

Well, having been working all day, I don’t have the energy to go into a long diatribe, but as it stands now, capitalism is not perfect, by the very fact that is a human system of economics, it will be riddled with problems. However, no other system has brought so much good to so many people. Freedoms, knowledge and abilities such as ours have never been known in human history. With the advent of future Star Trek type technologies, (created through Capitalism); perhaps a better economic system may be developed. Until that day, it’s the best we have and we are lucky to have it.



I find that those who dislike/hate capitalism still use it.

Take care my friends!