Christian Reconstructionism

[Feisty Mouse]

dr ~ so once accused/arrested, someone must therefore be guilty?

We have an imperfect legal system. The fact that we have already exectured innocent people makes me extremely unhappy with expanding the death penalty even more.

 

[rmcrobertson]

"Christ and his army, at His return, are going to kill a very large number of people: murderers and evildoers. See Revelations 19 and the end of Luke 19."

Gosh, thanks for the threat. And good to see that we've got beyond that whole disgusting wishy-washy "Christ's Mercy," thing.

Meanwhile, there is before the Supreme Court the appeal of a guy who really did kill someone--he's a paranoid schizophrenic who's mentally retarded and addicted to alcohol, the product of the worst kind of family abuse imaginable. It appears that his defense attorney didn't feel that the evaluations done by the prosecution, together with an account of his gawdawful family history, was relevant--so he rejected looking at them, and they were never brought up in trial.

One doesn't really buy the whole Revelations thingy. But one suspects what the attitude of Christ towards this sort of, "burn him!" ugliness might be.

 

[digitalronin]

dr ~ so once accused/arrested, someone must therefore be guilty?

dont forget convicted by trial or jury.

We have an imperfect legal system. The fact that we have already exectured innocent people makes me extremely unhappy with expanding the death penalty even more.

No, legal system is perfect. The vast majority of those on death row deserve to be there.


"If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of a bunch of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call."

John McAdams - Marquette University/Department of Political Science, on deterrence

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[heretic888]

"Thou Shalt Not Kill --- Unless Big Brother Okays It First."

 

[Feisty Mouse]

dont forget convicted by trial or jury.



No, legal system is perfect. The vast majority of those on death row deserve to be there.

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OK, convicted by trial or jury.

So it's OK to you that our legal system - IMPERFECT though it is - has executed innocent citizens?

So as long as some innocent people die, that's OK to quench the desire to kill those who did do wrong?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Here is a Columbia University study of death penalty error rates:

http://www2.law.columbia.edu/instru...an/liebman/Liebman Study/docs/1/section2.html

Here are a series of biographies of severely mentally retarded people who we sentenced to death. My favorite is the first--Limmie Arthur, who was apparantly incapable of understanding why he was on Death Row. He believed that he was going to be executed because he could not read.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/ustat/ustat0301-07.htm#P996_176857

I'm not sure what contenporary fundamentalists might have to say. However, one has a pretty good suspicion about what the Christ of the New Testament would have to say.

 

[digitalronin]

OK, convicted by trial or jury.

So it's OK to you that our legal system - IMPERFECT though it is - has executed innocent citizens?

So as long as some innocent people die, that's OK to quench the desire to kill those who did do wrong?

Am under the inclination that more innocents will die under the hands of
parolees and excapies than under the death penalty

We're Not Executing the Innocent
By Paul G. Cassell

The Wall Street Journal
Friday, June 16, 2000


I am willing to conceed that some innocents have died under the death penalty, but vast majority of those on the row did the crime.


peace


p.s. Where did u get the cool avatar. It seems several of the members have one by the same artist.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Am under the inclination that more innocents will die under the hands of
parolees and excapies than under the death penalty

We're Not Executing the Innocent
By Paul G. Cassell

The Wall Street Journal
Friday, June 16, 2000


I am willing to conceed that some innocents have died under the death penalty, but vast majority of those on the row did the crime.


peace


p.s. Where did u get the cool avatar. It seems several of the members have one by the same artist.

The article dismissed the error rate entirely, to begin with - when it has been demonstrated that innocent people are killed by the state, on Death Row.

So our government should only be slightly statistically *worse* at murdering people than its citizens? The fact that innocent citizens have died does not phase you at all?

And, as others have mentioned, the death penalty is not a good *deterrent*. Once someone is in prision for life, how will they harm another (aside from other inmates)? It is simply because we want revenge for the crime. So revenge is worth it, even if some innocents die?

Not to me.

I'll find a link to the avatar site - it's a Japanese site, where you can create your own avatar. There was an old thread on it at some point, too - you might be able to search for it.

ETA: here you go http://illustmaker.abi-station.com/index_en.shtml

 

[hardheadjarhead]

One of the ten commandments is "Thou shall not murder". This is one way we love our neighbors (not to murder them) The bible punishment for murder was death. Nothing has changed.. if you murder you should be killed. Christ and his army, at His return, are going to kill a very large number of people: murderers and evildoers. See Revelations 19 and the end of Luke 19. For now we as humans are required to deal with extreme evildoers by stopping their sprees. If we fail to protect our communities and families from them we are doing evil, and not loving the innocent. It's simple societal self defense which is obvious even without the bible.

You've broken this down into a black and white issue without considering any possible extenuating circumstances. See the death penalty thread for some of those...I won't go over it here.

You know, Martin Luther hated Revelations and tried to get it taken out of the Protestant canon. Other church fathers thought it was pretty ridiculous too.


Regards,


Steve

 

[FearlessFreep]

What happened to a discussion of Christian Reconstructionism?

Anyway, for what it's worth, the only requirements for being a Christian are simple, admit you've sinned and that you cannot redeem yourself from those sins and to let Christ do it for you There are no tests to prove worth and no litmus tests to prove continual standing. As a matter of fact, Jesus made the point that it was not for the well but for the sick that he came. THe upshot of all that is that there are a lot of Christians who...well...are jerks They were jerks before they were Christians and sometimes remain jerks afterwards. One would hope that the become less of jerks as they spend time with Christ but..doesn't always happen, and doesn't even really have to happen. From a thelogical perspective, all that really happens is they go from being sinning jerks to sinning but forgiven jerks.

All I can say is, my apologies for what they've done. Hopefully, with prayer and humility, I can do better.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

What happened to a discussion of Christian Reconstructionism?

Anyway, for what it's worth, the only requirements for being a Christian are simple, admit you've sinned and that you cannot redeem yourself from those sins and to let Christ do it for you There are no tests to prove worth and no litmus tests to prove continual standing. As a matter of fact, Jesus made the point that it was not for the well but for the sick that he came. THe upshot of all that is that there are a lot of Christians who...well...are jerks They were jerks before they were Christians and sometimes remain jerks afterwards. One would hope that the become less of jerks as they spend time with Christ but..doesn't always happen, and doesn't even really have to happen. From a thelogical perspective, all that really happens is they go from being sinning jerks to sinning but forgiven jerks.

All I can say is, my apologies for what they've done. Hopefully, with prayer and humility, I can do better.

FF, I think some of our stances on Christianity are different, but I will give you mad props for the "they can still be jerks" comments. Very true.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Yup.

Bible also says "judge not, lest ye be judged".

It also says, "Give unto Caesar what is his" --- a curious admonition to obey existing laws.

How do we harmonize this contradiction in regards to capital punishment??

You don't. The Bible is an ahistorical document that contradicts itself perpetually. You deal with it, and derive whatever moral wisdom you can from it --- without treating it as the perfected blueprint to human existence.

this is one of the most truthful posts i have read in regards to the bible.
you cannot connect old and new testament and expect a semblance of uniformity....old testament-old way, new testament-new(old)way.
if im not mistaken....the literal translation of the ten commandments from the torah is different from your run of the mill king james "version" bible. and note i put version in quotations, simply because when it was translated (supposedly as close as possible to whatever hebrew and GREEK texts they used.) it was for a different time with different laws.

shawn

ps. if someone could put the 10 commandments from the torah on here so we can compare it would be great(exact translation)

 

[hardheadjarhead]

you cannot connect old and new testament and expect a semblance of uniformity....old testament-old way, new testament-new(old)way.

Neither can one harmonize the four Gospels. Modern pop apologetics attempts to do this, but in doing so asks us to abandon our intellectual honesty. That would be an interesting topic for another thread.

ps. if someone could put the 10 commandments from the torah on here so we can compare it would be great(exact translation)

A link with three versions--Catholic, Protestant, and Hebrew.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm


Regards,


Steve

 

[hardheadjarhead]

While I agree with the idea of expanding the death penalty, this is a little overboard. The penalty should include murders, drug dealers, rapists, child molesters, and gangbanger.

So...no woman has ever filed a false rape report? Nobody has ever done time for a false child molestation charge filed by an irate ex-spouse? We kill a person who develops pedophilic impulses only following the formation of a brain tumor? We kill someone for selling one of his friends a bag of pot? By gangbanger I assume you mean a gang member...that, in itself is a prosecutable and capital crime?



Am under the inclination that more innocents will die under the hands of
parolees and excapies than under the death penalty

Quite possible...but having the state execute innocent people and "letting God sort 'em out" goes beyond reason and sanctifies the killing of innocents. Killing innocents in the name of revenge is insane. State sanctioned killing is preventable. Homicide typically is not and never has been.



Regards,


Steve

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i dont know if i can completely agree with the hebrew translation......i would like to see it in plain english....not elizabethan english. but thanks for the link.


shawn

 

[rmcrobertson]

So the Bible-thumpers (differently from Christians) have no problem with the idea of executing somebody who's so mentally-retarded that he tries to hide from the cops but forgets that he's left his feet sticking out, then goes through his trial believing that he's going to be executed because he cannot read. They have no trouble with executing someone who asks if he can watch TV after his execution, later. They have no trouble killing somebody who's a paranoid schizophrenic, with an IQ estimated to be in the 60-70 range, who was abused as a child in ways you don't even want to think about.

Lovely. Beyond congratulations for retreating back before Judge Blackstone and the M'Naghten rule (One hears that the courts in Iran do this beautifully), only quoting the wisdom of Huckleberry Finn can be in order.

Upon finally figuring out that his aunt, teachers, preachers and everybody else believes that slavery is the Will of God and that in helping his friend Jim run off, Huck is guaranteeing his damnation, Huck says to himself:

"Well, I'll GO to hell then."

Me too, Huck. Me too. Let the Bible-thumpers have their ugly little, "Heaven," with their vindictive, hateful Christ, from which they can look down smugly upon billions in torment for eternity.

 

[Erik]

I don't think they'd be Chrstian. They would be neo-Jews. Neo- because they weren't part of the original 12 tribes and Jews because they would be following Jewish laws.

Remember, the apostles were Jews though they followed Jesus.

Also, slavery is allowed in the bible (but only from neighboring countries). See Lev. 25:44:

" 44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are round about"

There's another version of the bible where it states "You may own slaves" plain and simple in Lev. 25:44.

 

[digitalronin]

While I agree with the idea of expanding the death penalty, this is a little overboard. The penalty should include murders, drug dealers, rapists, child molesters, and gangbanger.

So...no woman has ever filed a false rape report? Nobody has ever done time for a false child molestation charge filed by an irate ex-spouse? We kill a person who develops pedophilic impulses only following the formation of a brain tumor? We kill someone for selling one of his friends a bag of pot? By gangbanger I assume you mean a gang member...that, in itself is a prosecutable and capital crime?

In places I grew up the term is gangbanger not gang member. Yes, my upbringing made me bias against them. Apparently u come from a middle to upper class family and did not have to grow up around the scum. Try living in the neighborhoods where the bangers are re-released time after time after time. Just yesterday one of the rehabilitated gentlemen sufficated a four month old girl. I would post it but they already took it off the website. Too bad for kid but luckily her killer will soon be rehabilitated thanks to california's liberal judicial system. Note: the murderer was a parolee from previous violent crimes.

As for the pedophilia, What percentage of child molesters actually fit ur profile? If it is a medical condition can you cure it, or is it like rabies where u are better off just shooting the animal.

Am under the inclination that more innocents will die under the hands of
parolees and excapies than under the death penalty

Quite possible...but having the state execute innocent people and "letting God sort 'em out" goes beyond reason and sanctifies the killing of innocents. Killing innocents in the name of revenge is insane. State sanctioned killing is preventable. Homicide typically is not and never has been.

Apparently some of them are preventable. Keep the rabid dogs in the cage or better yet shoot them.

"During their first year after release from prison, male homicide offenders were about 250 times more likely to commit homicide than members of the general male population"

Factors associated with homicide recidivism in a 13-year sample of homicide offenders in Finland.

Checks and balances are already in place to prevent the possibility of executing an innocent person. Does it occur, yes but not to the degree the anti-capital puninishment proponets would have you believe. That dual edge of modern forensics that is freeing the few innocent is at the same time convicting the very guilty.


Peace,

G

 

[hardheadjarhead]

In places I grew up the term is gangbanger not gang member.

Just wanted to make sure you weren't using the original definition of the word.

As for the pedophilia, What percentage of child molesters actually fit ur profile? If it is a medical condition can you cure it, or is it like rabies where u are better off just shooting the animal.

I don't think the "put them down" argument quite works in a democratic republic with a Constitution like ours. Sounds a little more like Germany, circa 1936.

As for percentages of pedophiles suffering from tumors...it is probably very low. Once again, you're suggesting killing them all and not worrying about extenuating circumstances (brain trauma, mental retardation) or the possibility of their innocence.

Here's the one case study of a tumor I know of:

http://216.117.159.91/crimetimes/03a/w03ap5.htm

Note a quote from another web site:

Neurologist Daniel Tranel of the University of Iowa has seen people with brain tumors lie, damage property and, in extremely rare cases, commit murder: "The individual simply loses the ability to control impulses or anticipate the consequences of choices."

There is also a strong correlation between serial killers and head trauma. I posted elsewhere a case study of a young man who killed his mother and molested his corpse after having fractured his skull on a fall from a horse. The kid was normal prior to the accident, and went through an instand personality change.


"During their first year after release from prison, male homicide offenders were about 250 times more likely to commit homicide than members of the general male population"

I'm not arguing for their release. We're not talking about letting them walk. We're talking about not killing them because they might be innocent or mentally disabled.


Checks and balances are already in place to prevent the possibility of executing an innocent person.


Right. As of October 6, 2004, there have been 117 exonerations in 25 different states. We're talking 117 people who were framed...either intentionally or through incompetence...and sentenced to die for crimes they didn't commit.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=412&scid=6#inn-st


Regards,


Steve

 

[digitalronin]

I don't think the "put them down" argument quite works in a democratic republic with a Constitution like ours. Sounds a little more like Germany, circa 1936.

Comparing convicted murderers to the Jews of the holocaust. Do we really want to go there?

As for percentages of pedophiles suffering from tumors...it is probably very low. Once again, you're suggesting killing them all and not worrying about extenuating circumstances (brain trauma, mental retardation) or the possibility of their innocence.

Here's the one case study of a tumor I know of:

http://216.117.159.91/crimetimes/03a/w03ap5.htm

Note a quote from another web site:

Neurologist Daniel Tranel of the University of Iowa has seen people with brain tumors lie, damage property and, in extremely rare cases, commit murder: "The individual simply loses the ability to control impulses or anticipate the consequences of choices."

There is also a strong correlation between serial killers and head trauma. I posted elsewhere a case study of a young man who killed his mother and molested his corpse after having fractured his skull on a fall from a horse. The kid was normal prior to the accident, and went through an instand personality change.

As your citation states it is an "extremely rare" case. Most murders do not suffer from the condition.

Right. As of October 6, 2004, there have been 117 exonerations in 25 different states. We're talking 117 people who were framed...either intentionally or through incompetence...and sentenced to die for crimes they didn't commit.

117 out of a population of over 3000 currently serving death row inmates.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cp03.htm

I'll be very generous and give that 4% of the population didnt do it. This means 96% of them did in fact commit the crimes.