Why hang a Korean flag in your Taekwondo dojang?

[ETinCYQX]

You assume I care about those questions and answers. If I really wanted to, I have many channels within my club where I can obtain that info, including my GM himself (he is one phone call away, although I wouldnt bother him with such pointless questions). Do I want/need those questions answered, will it help improve me as a martial artist? I dont think so. If I happen to stumble accross that info, then great. Would I go out of my way to find out? No, it really doesnt interest me that much. Now, back to flags.......

While I respect your point of view I would submit that the answers to these questions will absolutely make one a better martial artist. My Taekwondo experience has been greatly enriched by knowledge of my history.

 

[Archtkd]

Folks,

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Jim Sheeran
jks9199
MT Asst. Administrator

Some folks actually complain about such things?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Some folks actually complain about such things?

Appaantly they do.

 

[puunui]

I wouldn't consider myself a member, no. It's been well over 20 years since I trained in an ITF dojang. Frankly, I don't consider myself a member of the Kukkiwon either.

And yet you practice the Kukkiwon forms and try to do them to the Kukkiwon standards. Why is that? Do you have kukkiwon dan certification or no?

So the Kukkiwon is the borg now? Got it. :rofl:

It's not like the borg because the borg does their thing by force. The Kukkiwon doesn't do that. People willingly made the switch from ITF to Kukkiwon certification. If you do not wish to convert your ITF dan to Kukkiwon dan, no one will force you to do so, unlike the borg.

 

[puunui]

Kukkiwon does not need our help. But you might, unless you were able to find your grandmaster and ask him some of the questions your instructor could not answer for you

The Kukkiwon doesn't need our help, but I do believe that Kukkiwon is grateful that we are so willing to help out if we can. Too many people out there only know how to take from the Kukkiwon, and not give back. They take on one hand and then criticize and complain about the Kukkiwon on the other hand. If I wanted that action, I would go raise a spoiled child. "Ask not what your county can do for you; ask what you can do for your country." That's my presidential quote of the day....

 

[ralphmcpherson]

And yet you practice the Kukkiwon forms and try to do them to the Kukkiwon standards. Why is that? Do you have kukkiwon dan certification or no?




It's not like the borg because the borg does their thing by force. The Kukkiwon doesn't do that. People willingly made the switch from ITF to Kukkiwon certification. If you do not wish to convert your ITF dan to Kukkiwon dan, no one will force you to do so, unlike the borg.

And the Borg don't hang out on forums bagging out their opposition at every opportunity. Or maybe they do, I don't watch star trek.

 

[RobinTKD]

If you do not wish to convert your ITF dan to Kukkiwon dan, no one will force you to do so.

Do you see it as a conversion? As you are aware Glenn, I have every intention of getting my Kukkiwon Dan certificate to go along side my ITF certification, but I don't see it as a full swap. To me Taekwondo is Taekwondo, no matter what organisation, some may wish to disagree, we all share the same lineage, both before and after the introduction of the KTA. I'll still practice the Chang Hon forms, along side the Taegueks, but with a Kukkiwon dan certificate, I'll start sparring in Shihap Kyorugi with the intention of entering some competitions.

I know it's naive, but I would like to see the ITF and KKW all come under one banner, and it seems to me there is apprehension about it in both camps, understandably so, maybe it's too late for that too happen and both organisations have become too long in the tooth. Only time will tell.

 

[puunui]

I know it's naive, but I would like to see the ITF and KKW all come under one banner, and it seems to me there is apprehension about it in both camps, understandably so, maybe it's too late for that too happen and both organisations have become too long in the tooth. Only time will tell.

It already happened, for all intents and purposes. The great majority of the ITF seniors left back in the 70's and early 80s and obtained their kukkiwon certification. Or they just left the ITF and did their own thing. Over the last ten years we have seen the ITF fracture into many groups and many just going their own separate way. Over time, this will happen again.

 

[puunui]

Do you see it as a conversion? I have every intention of getting my Kukkiwon Dan certificate to go along side my ITF certification, but I don't see it as a full swap. To me Taekwondo is Taekwondo, no matter what organisation, some may wish to disagree, we all share the same lineage, both before and after the introduction of the KTA. I'll still practice the Chang Hon forms, along side the Taegueks, but with a Kukkiwon dan certificate, I'll start sparring in Shihap Kyorugi with the intention of entering some competitions.

I don't know if conversion is the right word. I don't know what the correct word is when you take an ITF dan certificate and attempt to get the same kukkiwon rank. What would be the correct term for that?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Its all relative, and works both ways. My korean neighbour, after many years of kukkiwon tkd switched over to ITF, so he would have ITF guys saying that he was "converted" to their style. Of course the "kkw sign up commitee" will tell you that very rarely, if ever, do kkw practitioners swap over to ITF, but then thats completely understandable considering the agenda they are pushing

 

[Dirty Dog]

And yet you practice the Kukkiwon forms and try to do them to the Kukkiwon standards. Why is that?

I practice forms, in general, because they're fun and because I believe there is something to be learned from their practice. The Palgwe and Yudanja forms are the mandatory forms at our school, so I practice them. The Chang Hon forms were my first, and in some ways still my favorites, so I practice them. I travel a fair bit, and if I choose to drop in to observe a class while traveling, the Taegeuks are more common than the Palgwes. So I practice them.

Do you have kukkiwon dan certification or no?

Yes, I do.
I also have a birth certificate. Having one ALLOWS me to be an American citizen. It does not REQUIRE me to be one, any more than posessing a Kukkiwon Dan certificate requires me to be a member of the Kukkiwon.

My KKW Dan certificate is signed by the President of the KKW, as they are all. Doesn't really mean anything to me. On the back, it the signature and chop of our Kwan Jang. Now that means something to me. The certificate was presented to me framed. As soon as I got it home, I took the back off and carefully cut part of it away so as to make it possible to see the signature that matters to me.

The KKW, in this case, is more like the Department of Motor Vehicles than anything else.

It's not like the borg because the borg does their thing by force. The Kukkiwon doesn't do that. People willingly made the switch from ITF to Kukkiwon certification. If you do not wish to convert your ITF dan to Kukkiwon dan, no one will force you to do so, unlike the borg.

Frankly, it's this more than anything else about you that I do not think I will ever understand. Your built in assumption is that it's a switch, rather than an addition. KKW certification is in addition to, not a replacement for my ITF training.

 

[puunui]

I practice forms, in general, because they're fun and because I believe there is something to be learned from their practice. The Palgwe and Yudanja forms are the mandatory forms at our school, so I practice them. The Chang Hon forms were my first, and in some ways still my favorites, so I practice them. I travel a fair bit, and if I choose to drop in to observe a class while traveling, the Taegeuks are more common than the Palgwes. So I practice them.

How often do you run into dojang that teach the chang hon tul?

I also have a birth certificate. Having one ALLOWS me to be an American citizen. It does not REQUIRE me to be one, any more than posessing a Kukkiwon Dan certificate requires me to be a member of the Kukkiwon.

Having kukkiwon certification does not "REQUIRE" you to be "a member of the Kukkiwon", whatever that means.

My KKW Dan certificate is signed by the President of the KKW, as they are all. Doesn't really mean anything to me. On the back, it the signature and chop of our Kwan Jang. Now that means something to me. The certificate was presented to me framed. As soon as I got it home, I took the back off and carefully cut part of it away so as to make it possible to see the signature that matters to me.

ok.

The KKW, in this case, is more like the Department of Motor Vehicles than anything else.

Again, ok.

Frankly, it's this more than anything else about you that I do not think I will ever understand. Your built in assumption is that it's a switch, rather than an addition. KKW certification is in addition to, not a replacement for my ITF training.

Why wouldn't I understand? Frankly, I have seniors and juniors who, like you, who continue to practice and teach the chang hon tul, in addition to the kukkiwon poomsae, because they like them better. They, like you, learned those first, they like them more, and so they continue to train in them. These seniors include national team members, state presidents, national level officers, international referees, etc. They, like you, feel their kukkiwon knowledge, is in addition to their itf knowledge. If you wish to continue practicing your itf tul, then by all means continue. I'm certainly not trying to stop you, and frankly, neither is the kukkiwon.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I practice forms, in general, because they're fun and because I believe there is something to be learned from their practice. The Palgwe and Yudanja forms are the mandatory forms at our school, so I practice them. The Chang Hon forms were my first, and in some ways still my favorites, so I practice them. I travel a fair bit, and if I choose to drop in to observe a class while traveling, the Taegeuks are more common than the Palgwes. So I practice them.



Yes, I do.
I also have a birth certificate. Having one ALLOWS me to be an American citizen. It does not REQUIRE me to be one, any more than posessing a Kukkiwon Dan certificate requires me to be a member of the Kukkiwon.

My KKW Dan certificate is signed by the President of the KKW, as they are all. Doesn't really mean anything to me. On the back, it the signature and chop of our Kwan Jang. Now that means something to me. The certificate was presented to me framed. As soon as I got it home, I took the back off and carefully cut part of it away so as to make it possible to see the signature that matters to me.

The KKW, in this case, is more like the Department of Motor Vehicles than anything else.


Frankly, it's this more than anything else about you that I do not think I will ever understand. Your built in assumption is that it's a switch, rather than an addition. KKW certification is in addition to, not a replacement for my ITF training.

Your last line hits the nail on the head. If I go and do some wing chun to have some extra skills in ADDITION to my tkd skills, it does not mean that I have been CONVERTED to wing chun. Just as someone can add to their credentials/skillset by adding a kkw cerificate to their trophy room wall without being "converted" to kkw, whatever that means.

 

[Dirty Dog]

How often do you run into dojang that teach the chang hon tul?

They're not all that hard to find, generally speaking. However, I live within spitting distance of the Olympic Training Center. Guess what's most common here?

Why wouldn't I understand? Frankly, I have seniors and juniors who, like you, who continue to practice and teach the chang hon tul, in addition to the kukkiwon poomsae, because they like them better. They, like you, learned those first, they like them more, and so they continue to train in them. These seniors include national team members, state presidents, national level officers, international referees, etc. They, like you, feel their kukkiwon knowledge, is in addition to their itf knowledge. If you wish to continue practicing your itf tul, then by all means continue. I'm certainly not trying to stop you, and frankly, neither is the kukkiwon.

And yet, in every post, you talk about being "assimilated" and "converting". I do believe this is the very first time you've ever said anything that would indicate you have the slightest understanding of the concept. Intentional or not, your posts clearly give a "Kukkiwon Uber Alles/TKDBorg" impression. If that's your intention, then it's pretty silly. If it's not, you might want to reconsider your wording.

 

[puunui]

However, I live within spitting distance of the Olympic Training Center. Guess what's most common here?

mastercole and I will be in colorado springs in july. perhaps we can stop by your dojang.

And yet, in every post, you talk about being "assimilated" and "converting". I do believe this is the very first time you've ever said anything that would indicate you have the slightest understanding of the concept.

Wrong. Again. Go read through my posts carefully. I always state that it is your choice what you wish to do. I never force anyone to do what they do not wish to do. The only thing that I do ask is that if you are going to speak, please speak from a factual point of view, instead of an emotional one.

The term "assimilation" is a kukkiwon term, not mine. It was a program in place from over 35 years ago which allowed ITF members to obtain equivalent Kukkiwon dan rank, IF THEY CHOSE TO. It was the ITF members who decided, not the Kukkiwon. The Kukkiwon simply left the door open for ITF members. If you don't like that, that, frankly, is your problem. Not mine.

Intentional or not, your posts clearly give a "Kukkiwon Uber Alles/TKDBorg" impression. If that's your intention, then it's pretty silly. If it's not, you might want to reconsider your wording.

Or I could continue to post in the fashion that I do and you can consider reading my posts more carefully.