Why hang a Korean flag in your Taekwondo dojang?

[Dirty Dog]

That's true, with respect to your lineage.

Really? Would you care to explain how you have determined that my lineage is purely Kukkiwon?

I suppose we could have a lengthy discussion about being "rigidly repressed"; but if that were the case, then why would the Korean pioneers study Japanese martial arts if that were the case? Why would the Korean people adopt anything from Japan, whether karate, judo, kendo, or Japanese karate innovations, uniforms, etc. ? And how about having Chinese flags in Okinawan dojo?

I'd guess that, given that the native martial arts were supressed, the only option available to those with an interest in MA training was to study Japanese or Chinese arts. And given their understandable desire to re-establish their national identity after their liberation from Japanese occupation, I'm not at all suprised that they'd downplay any non-Korean influences.

 

[Zenjael]

I haven't read anything but the MP... but people have nationalities, not martial art.

 

[puunui]

Really? Would you care to explain how you have determined that my lineage is purely Kukkiwon?

Everyone's lineage is included within the Kukkiwon. That is the whole point of the Kukkiwon, it includes everything and everyone.

I'd guess that, given that the native martial arts were supressed, the only option available to those with an interest in MA training was to study Japanese or Chinese arts. And given their understandable desire to re-establish their national identity after their liberation from Japanese occupation, I'm not at all suprised that they'd downplay any non-Korean influences.

There is book I would recommend called "Korean Patterns". It was written by a non-korean gentleman who grew up in Korea because I believe his parents were christian workers there for over twenty years. He explains the interrelation between Korea and Japan. If anything, Korea looked up to Japan as an attainable model for modernization, as opposed to the USA, which was looked upon as being far too advanced, at least at that point in time. That is why Korean martial artists traveled to Japan for exchange matches and such. Korean martial artists, especially taekwondoin, were enamored with japanese karate, at least for a time, during the 50's and early 60s, so much so that they adopted the karate long wide stances during this period, something that is still with us today. Those long wide stances were not taught at the kwan during the 1940s; they were introduced during the late 50s and early 60s, until GM LEE Won Kuk came back in 1967 and reminded his students and juniors about how the stances were supposed to be practiced. A college education in a Japanese university was considered much more desirable and valuable than an education from a Korean or even American university as well. Today we can look at Korean car makers, who obviously modeled their company after Honda or Toyota. Similarly Samsung is the Korean equivalent of Sony. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and Korea has imitated Japan (and the US), in much the same way that Japan has imitated the US, Germany, and I believe the UK.

 

[mastercole]

Really? Would you care to explain how you have determined that my lineage is purely Kukkiwon?

Would you care to explain how it is not?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Everyone's lineage is included within the Kukkiwon. That is the whole point of the Kukkiwon, it includes everything and everyone.

OK, maybe it's just me, but this seems a lot like the Mormons going back in time converting the deceased to being Mormons whether they would have wanted it or not.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Everyone's lineage is included within the Kukkiwon. That is the whole point of the Kukkiwon, it includes everything and everyone.

.

I would not consider it so. AFAIAC my lineage predates the KKW. As far as I know none of my isntructors, or their instructors were KKW memebers. At least not the one we think of being established in 1974 or so.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Would you care to explain how it is not?

Because my lineage would have to include those I trained with who were never a part of the Kukkiwon. You're not trying to tell us that General Choi (and through him, the ITF in general) was secretly part of the Kukkiwon, are you?

 

[Manny]

When I was a teen I have once a dobok with the korean flag, right now I think the flag that I will put in my dobok will the Mexican one, because I am a proud Mexican and Love my flag, infact my black belts (the embroided ones) have the mexican flag.

Manny

 

[mastercole]

The challenge is to look at the facts, and not your feelings.

The problem here is that many people really have no idea what the Kukkiwon was, and what it is today. We still have people who think the Kukkiwon is the WTF, and people who today realized there is a big difference between the two, use to think they were the same thing just a few short years ago.

Lets look at some facts:

- Every single Taekwondo practitioner in the world can trace their lineage back to one of the 5 original Kwan or one of the 4 annex Kwan.

- These 9 Kwan formed the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA), which created it's own "Dae Han Taekwondo Hyop Hae Joong Ahng Dojang" (KTA Central
Gymnasium) which was on the 3rd floor of the Korea Sports Center, a facilty they leased out for that purpose.

- The KTA eventually built their own building to house their KTA Central Gymnasium. See foundation plaque below that is still attached to the building today that states it is the KTA Central Gymnasium

[/IMG]

- Later the KTA decided to change the name of the building to the "National Technique Center", or, Kuk Ki Won. The Kukkiwon became independent of the KTA
on February 5, 1980. On that date, the KTA ceased to have a Central Gymnasium because the KTA became a standard Member National Association of the
WTF, removing itself from the leadership role of Taekwondo and taking on just the responsibilities of regulating the business of Taekwondo just inside of Korea
(and partially the 7 foreign branches of the KTA that still exist today). However, the Kwan still influence the Kukkiwon today.

Any senior Korean instructor of Taekwondo was part of this history of the Korean Taekwondo Association. There were also a part of the testings and training that went on at the Korean Taekwondo Associations Central Gymnasium, today known as the Kukkiwon.

It's no secret that the ITF was directly involved with the Kukkiwon. After the ITF was formed in 1966, the ITF's deputy technical director was involved directly with the creation of the Korea Taekwondo Associations new curriculum that was first taught at it's Central Gymnasium, the same curriculum that is still taught at same building that housed the KTA's former Central Gymnasium, the Kukkiwon. Do you know his name and what Kwan he was from?

So every Taekwondoin, even ITF members and former members - everyone of them - can trace their roots back through Kukkiwon's history.

If you think not, tell me what Kwan, the senior of that Kwan you feel does not have such roots, and I will explain it to you, in detail.

That's a fact.

 

[Markku P]

We acknowledge the origins of the art and show respect to those that developed it by issuing kukkiwon certification to the students. All I have is an American flag up on the wall, no Korean flag. When the kwan founders opened their dojang during the 1940's, they did not put up a japanese or okinawan flag on the wall. In turn, the dojo in Japan did not put up an Okinawan flag, and in Okinawa, they did not hang a Chinese flag on the wall.

I don't put Korean flags on my dobok either.

Funny thing is, I have students who have their own dojang who put the Korean flag on both the wall and their dobok. My attitude is it is their school and they can do whatever they want.

We have our National flag, Kukkiwon and WTF flags but no bowing for the flag. ( Uniforms can have national flags as a patch )

/Markku P.

 

[puunui]

OK, maybe it's just me, but this seems a lot like the Mormons going back in time converting the deceased to being Mormons whether they would have wanted it or not.

Actually not like that at all.

 

[Earl Weiss]

So every Taekwondoin, even ITF members and former members - everyone of them - can trace their roots back through Kukkiwon's history.

If you think not, tell me what Kwan, the senior of that Kwan you feel does not have such roots, and I will explain it to you, in detail.

That's a fact.

That is one of the reasons I used the date of 1974 or so as to what we may (OK you may not) consider to be the current incarnation of the KKW.

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Rather than saying my lineage is included in the KKW, I would take a more egalitarian approach that The KKW and I share some common lineage. The history can be traced to some common roots.

 

[puunui]

Because my lineage would have to include those I trained with who were never a part of the Kukkiwon. You're not trying to tell us that General Choi (and through him, the ITF in general) was secretly part of the Kukkiwon, are you?

He was part of the Chung Do Kwan, Oh Do Kwan and Korea Taekwondo Association, so yes he was part of the Kukkiwon, whether he liked it or not. There was also an Oh Do Kwan member (the Kwan Jang at the time) who was a member of the KTA's adhoc forms committee that created the Palgwae, Taeguek and Yudanja poomsae that you practice now. So the Oh Do Kwan/ITF curriculum and tul have been included and incorporated into the Kukkiwon poomsae. They specifically included the Oh Do Kwan Jang so that past and present ITF would know that they were and are included in the process of unification under the Kukkiwon.

 

[Dirty Dog]

He was part of the Chung Do Kwan, Oh Do Kwan and Korea Taekwondo Association, so yes he was part of the Kukkiwon, whether he liked it or not. There was also an Oh Do Kwan member (the Kwan Jang at the time) who was a member of the KTA's adhoc forms committee that created the Palgwae, Taeguek and Yudanja poomsae that you practice now. So the Oh Do Kwan/ITF curriculum and tul have been included and incorporated into the Kukkiwon poomsae. They specifically included the Oh Do Kwan Jang so that past and present ITF would know that they were and are included in the process of unification under the Kukkiwon.

Using your own logic, since the ITF predates the Kukkiwon, it's more reasonable tom say that the Kukkiwon is part of the ITF.
I find it amusing that you think people can be part of the Kukkiwon "whether [they] liked it or not".

 

[mastercole]

That is one of the reasons I used the date of 1974 or so as to what we may (OK you may not) consider to be the current incarnation of the KKW.

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Rather than saying my lineage is included in the KKW, I would take a more egalitarian approach that The KKW and I share some common lineage. The history can be traced to some common roots.

Well, we have to look at exactly what the Kukkiwon was and is. It was opened in 1972 as the Korea Taekwondo Association Central Gymnasium and remained the KTA's central gym until 1980. Everything that is the Kukkiwon today came from all the Kwan, including Oh Do Kwan, it's members, and CHOI Hong Hi. That is your lineage, I think you have no other as far as Taekwondo is concerned.

 

[mastercole]

Using your own logic, since the ITF predates the Kukkiwon, it's more reasonable tom say that the Kukkiwon is part of the ITF.
I find it amusing that you think people can be part of the Kukkiwon "whether [they] liked it or not".

CHOI Hong Hi was a leader of the Korea Taekwondo Association, a participant and an architect of the KTA's Central Gymnasium curriculum (along with other ITF members). CHOI Hong Hi even finalized the KTA name.

So, what part of the fact that the "Kukkiwon was the KTA central gym that CHOI Hong Hi helped create and presided over" do you not understand?

 

[Dirty Dog]

CHOI Hong Hi was a leader of the Korea Taekwondo Association, a participant and an architect of the KTA's Central Gymnasium curriculum (along with other ITF members). CHOI Hong Hi even finalized the KTA name.

So, what part of the fact that the "Kukkiwon was the KTA central gym that CHOI Hong Hi helped create and presided over" do you not understand?

Let's see... General Choi was the leader of the KTA, and founded the ITF. The KTA formed the Kukkiwon.

Yup. Looks like the Kukkiwon is part of the ITF.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Let's see... General Choi was the leader of the KTA, and founded the ITF. The KTA formed the Kukkiwon.

Yup. Looks like the Kukkiwon is part of the ITF.

Good point. Interesting.

 

[puunui]

Using your own logic, since the ITF predates the Kukkiwon, it's more reasonable tom say that the Kukkiwon is part of the ITF.

Actually no, because General Choi was exclusionary in its outlook and actions. So it wouldn't include the Kukkiwon, although it would be great if the ITF did include it.

I find it amusing that you think people can be part of the Kukkiwon "whether [they] liked it or not".

Not they, "he", meaning General Choi. Many members of the ITF have enjoyed the benefits of the Kukkiwon considering them to be included in Kukki Taekwondo, has have received Kukkiwon certification as a result. And again, the Oh Do Kwan directly contributed to both the poomsae and curriculum of the Kukkiwon.

 

[puunui]

Let's see... General Choi was the leader of the KTA, and founded the ITF. The KTA formed the Kukkiwon.

Yup. Looks like the Kukkiwon is part of the ITF.

problem is, the ITF doesn't see it that way, even though many former members of the ITF do see it that way, when they graciously accepted their kukkiwon certification. Perhaps even your own instructor or instructor's instructor did the same.