Why Don't Many of Kenpo's "Top Guns" Spar?

[Seabrook]

I'm a random Kenpo student!
I cannot understand why someone would want to learn any form of martial arts if they weren't going to practice it. Sparring, in my humble opinion, is vital, no, it isn't a "real" fight, but, if you spar every week, and your attacker hasn't been in a fight in years, who do you think will come out on top?

Beautiful

 

[Danjo]

Correct. I meant if a random student joined MartialTalk. Perhaps I should have said if a random Kenpo student joins MartialTalk.

Oh, ok. Sorry. In that case I agree. I think there are many people on "MT"/Martial Talk that don't spar.

 

[jks9199]

I'm a random Kenpo student!
I cannot understand why someone would want to learn any form of martial arts if they weren't going to practice it. Sparring, in my humble opinion, is vital, no, it isn't a "real" fight, but, if you spar every week, and your attacker hasn't been in a fight in years, who do you think will come out on top?

Sparring is one means of practicing the learned techniques under one form of pressure.

Is it possible that, after many years of training which did include sparring in its appropriate time and place, a student may no longer need that particular form of practice? Or need it much less often, and perhaps in a rather different form -- which might not even look like sparring to a less experienced student?

 

[Big Don]

I suppose that is possible, however, then the student would miss out on the fun.

 

[Doc]

Sparring is one means of practicing the learned techniques under one form of pressure.

Is it possible that, after many years of training which did include sparring in its appropriate time and place, a student may no longer need that particular form of practice? Or need it much less often, and perhaps in a rather different form -- which might not even look like sparring to a less experienced student?

Well I guess it depends upon the circumstances, but I agree with you. What I call "sparring" now, some may not agree. However I did my share "back in the day" without the benefit of pads, groin protection, or shin guards and my body paid the price for it against some of the best that ever was.

I now have this stupid thing I do called "go to work everyday," as I am not a martial artist by vocation but by hobby if you will. Paying bills and tribute to my own estrogen mafia is my vocation it seems. And unfortunately, in my "real job" I still have to "fight for real" as my life depends upon it.

Getting banged up is no longer fun, and something about being over sixty and having done my share suggests I don't need to prove it anymore. I'm still quite extemporaneously very physical in my teaching, but it would not resemble the bad habit forming "sparring" most would recognize.

While I admit at some stage of development the physicality of sparring can foster a warrior spirit and can be good toward the ultimate goal, it won't teach you how to fight.

The newbies think "sparring" IS fighting and would like to elevate it to some lofty place. (The younger they are the more fun.) It's not fighting, it's sparring. Confusing the two can have fatal results. Mr. Parker got his sparring out of the way when he was "younger and dumber" by his own accounts. And even though he stopped sparring years before his death, I don't think anyone ever suggested he couldn't fight, and I thought that was the ultimate goal.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying don't spar, but it has it's time and place, and I thing everyone should do it - in its time and place. I did!

 

[marlon]

thanks Doc. I appreciate your informed opinion

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Danjo]

I remember when I was in Shotokan we did what was called "Three-step sparring" a lot in addition to one-step and free-sparring. It was essentially a defense against three attacks that the instructor would call out and then a counter after the third attack and defense. These were very linear in design and the counters were of the "One-Punch-Kill" variety, so it left a lot to be desired interms of reality. However, I remember them REALLY helping to develop timing, distancing and reflexes when I was first learning. In Kenpo and Kajukenbo etc. there are pre-set techniques as well as drills like those mentioned above that perform the same function as the three-step sparring did in Shotokan. All of them go a long way toward helping one not flinch when punch is thrown and help keep one's timing sharp.

I remember after I had been training in Karate for about 6 months. I was in Junior High School and a boy wanted to fight me over something I'd said (who me?). He threw two punches and I blocked them so effortlessly and reflexively and countered with a front-snap kick to his stomach so automatically that I just stood there amazed at my bad self for several seconds after the guy was on the ground. I remember just walking off like I was in a fog and even forgot my folder on the ground where I had left it. That was all from the three-step type training I had been drilled in since I didn't start free-sparring till about 3 months later.

Now, grant you this was no trained fighter I was up against, but at that moment I felt like Chuck Norris (though I probably looked more like the Karate Kid). I had stood my ground and reacted with training, rather than just run or cover up and grab on to the guy like I would have before. I haven't thought about that event in years, but this thread reminded me of the value of non-sparring drills.

 

[kidswarrior]

I now have this stupid thing I do called "go to work everyday," as I am not a martial artist by vocation but by hobby if you will. Paying bills and tribute to my own estrogen mafia is my vocation it seems.

:lfao:

And unfortunately, in my "real job" I still have to "fight for real" as my life depends upon it.

And obviously you excel at it, since you're still around to post.

In my real job I haven't had to physically fight (yet), although I teach a room full of felons--well, they would be if California didn't charge them under the Child Welfare code, which doesn't assign felonies to 'children' (the only way to charge a minor with an adult crime is to try them as an adult). So, for example, last week I went round after round (verbally and emotionally) over who would be the big dog and run the class--him or me, with a 17-year old who had just gotten out of lockup for holding a gun to someone's head. I would have preferred a physical fight, but these street savvy kids know I can't touch them so they can talk tough and not have to back it up. Still, every day could be the day when one of them decides to get sent to prison where he can be with the homies, and uses an attack against me as the means--or just goes berserk over something that happened at home--or maybe ten years ago.

By the way, it's a stand-alone class in a shopping mall miles from any other of our 'schools', no security but me, no principal's office or dean of students, no other male staff at all, PD at best 5-8 minutes away (and they're good, but that's the reality). Sparring? I've got to always be aware of crowd control and how I might isolate the one or two inciters before it gets ugly. Or possibly, which wall I would put my back to at any given moment to fend off multiple attackers.

The newbies think "sparring" IS fighting and would like to elevate it to some lofty place. (The younger they are the more fun.) It's not fighting, it's sparring. Confusing the two can have fatal results. Mr. Parker got his sparring out of the way when he was "younger and dumber" by his own accounts. And even though he stopped sparring years before his death, I don't think anyone ever suggested he couldn't fight, and I thought that was the ultimate goal.

Experience talking.

 

[Doc]

I remember when I was in Shotokan we did what was called "Three-step sparring" a lot in addition to one-step and free-sparring. It was essentially a defense against three attacks that the instructor would call out and then a counter after the third attack and defense. These were very linear in design and the counters were of the "One-Punch-Kill" variety, so it left a lot to be desired interms of reality. However, I remember them REALLY helping to develop timing, distancing and reflexes when I was first learning. In Kenpo and Kajukenbo etc. there are pre-set techniques as well as drills like those mentioned above that perform the same function as the three-step sparring did in Shotokan. All of them go a long way toward helping one not flinch when punch is thrown and help keep one's timing sharp.

I remember after I had been training in Karate for about 6 months. I was in Junior High School and a boy wanted to fight me over something I'd said (who me?). He threw two punches and I blocked them so effortlessly and reflexively and countered with a front-snap kick to his stomach so automatically that I just stood there amazed at my bad self for several seconds after the guy was on the ground. I remember just walking off like I was in a fog and even forgot my folder on the ground where I had left it. That was all from the three-step type training I had been drilled in since I didn't start free-sparring till about 3 months later.

Now, grant you this was no trained fighter I was up against, but at that moment I felt like Chuck Norris (though I probably looked more like the Karate Kid). I had stood my ground and reacted with training, rather than just run or cover up and grab on to the guy like I would have before. I haven't thought about that event in years, but this thread reminded me of the value of non-sparring drills.

Those who decide that sparring is the art, obviously have to assign more value to it, than those with considerably more knowledge about real world fighting who are more rare. It has always been that way.

Sparring satisfies all the same visceral emotions of competitive sports which dominate the amateur physically athletic landscape. Also in the business of the arts, its an easy sell at all levels and requires less technical knowledge and skill as a teacher. The business is dominated by the young competitive minded, and tournament participation has always had a major impact on the business, so the promotion of sparring is natural and normal.

But "competition" has always been the creation of the young in any art and the primary contributors to the blurring of the lines between 'sparring and fighting.' Historically it required a "dumbing down" of the parent art to the chagrin of the elder scholars regardless of origin. Chinese Arts distillation of "wu-shu," or even Japanese "ju-do" and "Ken-do"are good examples. In America the first wide spread concept of the art was sport sparring, which spawned many of the well known "martial arts champions" of the heyday of the sport we are familiar with.

However in all fairness, the initial group of sport competitors in this country were true 'tough guys' who competed under so-called rules and circumstances, that would never be allowed today except in illegal underground fight clubs. Most brought the art with them from stints in the military services, and the bulk of their Asian Arts training consisted of brutal full contact bare bones mat-less training.

Even Kwai Sun Chow, as Parker's primary teacher, was from this school of training where mat-work, full contact techniques, and blood on your uniform were normal in everyday training. Parker understood that, and left that behind for the most part when he had to make a living everyday. "I've done that part of my study already." he would say. "Young warriors with no mortgages, insurance, and mouths to feed have nothing to lose when they can't go to work."

But sparring has evolved as the dominant competitors have gotten younger, softer, and lawyers and insurance companies weigh in on what is acceptable in tournaments and in your schools. I predicted and remember well when the helmets were introduced, as I watched competitors compete on hard wood and concrete floors without equipment. I knew it was only a matter of time before someone died. Ultimately several did in what was then, and largely still is, a completely unregulated "sport" activity.

So the amateur sparring today in local tournaments and schools resembles none of the sparring from the martial arts history of America. We now have tournaments dominated by children where everyone wins a trophy and participants have so many pads on, they can hardly move, and every neighborhood has champions and soccor trohphies, along with the moms that drop them off at "practice" and everybody of all ages are now warriors.

But the business of the arts has created a sharp division, as usual, between the technical side and the sport. The newbies consider the sport aspect to be the domain of the "tough guys," while most others are technically inept as schools eschew sparring for disfunctional "self-defense techniques." No wonder the sparring faction feels the way they do. Given a choice of the two, I'd vote for the sparring myself in today's environment of false masters with high rank and no skill or knowledge.

All things being as they should, sparring has its place, but is no longer a test of your masculinity or fitness, and has never been a test of your true mastership of the arts, acording to Ed Parker. I agree with my teacher.

 

[Big Don]

I love the term estrogen mafia

 

[Doc]

I love the term estrogen mafia

It is a very large group of much influence in all aspects of life's functions, that will resort to cohersion, physical intimidation and even violence to get what they want. They don't all know each other, but will immedaitely come to the defense of one another regardless of the circumstances. What else can you call them?

 

[Sukerkin]

Doc, your contributions above in Posts#65 & 69 are very valuable indeed. Thank you for adding your experienced views to the mix :rei:.

 

[kidswarrior]

Doc, your contributions above in Posts#65 & 69 are very valuable indeed. Thank you for adding your experienced views to the mix :rei:.

Well said, Suke. Thanks, Doc. :asian:

 

[Doc]

Now, grant you this was no trained fighter I was up against, but at that moment I felt like Chuck Norris ... but this thread reminded me of the value of non-sparring drills.

Well most fights, IF you have one, are not agianst "trained fighters." There is a tendancy for most to describe someone who has had more fights than you, as "trained." Most "trained fighters," don't get into street fights.

As for the "non-sparring drills," don't sell them short. In fact, that IS sparring. Practicing these extemporaneous drills is how the art has always been taught, and clearly it works. "Sport freesparring" is a creation of those who trained to compete as a sport, virtually created by the Japanese in the "karate" arts. There was a great division among the old Japanese Masters when some of the newer, (and younger) introduced freesparring and split away from their "karate-do" roots, in favor of "freespar training" and created their own "ryu's."

The old masters taught the multiple step technique sparring, as you described that worked quite well. That IS sparring as envisioned by the progentors of the arts. "Freesparring" is a relative more modern 20th century invention for the purposes of competition. When most say "sparring" today, they mean "freesparring with rules."

The "sparring" you speak of, under the Chinese" is even more complex, mentally taxing, and a physically demanding activity that yields more positive results and skills, than the bad habit forming point emphasis variety of tournaments. Under this definition, I and all my students are required to "spar" regularly. "Sport Sparring" is another animal, that MAY be rough, tough, and physical, but so is football and boxing. But, none of them are a streetfight. I've seen them all get roughed up in a streetfight where there are no rules, and lose.

 

[Big Don]

It is a very large group of much influence in all aspects of life's functions, that will resort to cohersion, physical intimidation and even violence to get what they want. They don't all know each other, but will immedaitely come to the defense of one another regardless of the circumstances. What else can you call them?

That is brilliant. You could call them lots of things, just not where any of them could hear it...

 

[Doc]

:lfao:
And obviously you excel at it, since you're still around to post.

In my real job I haven't had to physically fight (yet), although I teach a room full of felons--well, they would be if California didn't charge them under the Child Welfare code, which doesn't assign felonies to 'children' (the only way to charge a minor with an adult crime is to try them as an adult). So, for example, last week I went round after round (verbally and emotionally) over who would be the big dog and run the class--him or me, with a 17-year old who had just gotten out of lockup for holding a gun to someone's head. I would have preferred a physical fight, but these street savvy kids know I can't touch them so they can talk tough and not have to back it up. Still, every day could be the day when one of them decides to get sent to prison where he can be with the homies, and uses an attack against me as the means--or just goes berserk over something that happened at home--or maybe ten years ago.

By the way, it's a stand-alone class in a shopping mall miles from any other of our 'schools', no security but me, no principal's office or dean of students, no other male staff at all, PD at best 5-8 minutes away (and they're good, but that's the reality). Sparring? I've got to always be aware of crowd control and how I might isolate the one or two inciters before it gets ugly. Or possibly, which wall I would put my back to at any given moment to fend off multiple attackers.


Experience talking.

I couldn't do your job sir. I commend your efforts. I'd last as long as it took for one of them to get in my face and get dropped. I'm old, and I don't posture, or threaten. I act - quickly, before they figure out how old I am. It takes mucho guts to do what you do.

Deep bow sir.

 

[Doc]

That is brilliant. You could call them lots of things, just not where any of them could hear it...

Shhhhhhh, not so loud.

 

[jks9199]

But sparring has evolved as the dominant competitors have gotten younger, softer, and lawyers and insurance companies weigh in on what is acceptable in tournaments and in your schools. I predicted and remember well when the helmets were introduced, as I watched competitors compete on hard wood and concrete floors without equipment. I knew it was only a matter of time before someone died. Ultimately several did in what was then, and largely still is, a completely unregulated "sport" activity.

So the amateur sparring today in local tournaments and schools resembles none of the sparring from the martial arts history of America. We now have tournaments dominated by children where everyone wins a trophy and participants have so many pads on, they can hardly move, and every neighborhood has champions and soccor trohphies, along with the moms that drop them off at "practice" and everybody of all ages are now warriors.

But the business of the arts has created a sharp division, as usual, between the technical side and the sport. The newbies consider the sport aspect to be the domain of the "tough guys," while most others are technically inept as schools eschew sparring for disfunctional "self-defense techniques." No wonder the sparring faction feels the way they do. Given a choice of the two, I'd vote for the sparring myself in today's environment of false masters with high rank and no skill or knowledge.

All things being as they should, sparring has its place, but is no longer a test of your masculinity or fitness, and has never been a test of your true mastership of the arts, acording to Ed Parker. I agree with my teacher.

There's sparring... and there's sparring. Or, as my teacher would say "there are people with footwork, and people with working feet."

As I define it -- sparring is a method of practicing the learned techniques under a particular form of pressure. To too many people today, sparring is "swapping leather and blood and sweat"; there's no emphasis on developing the learned techniques (which they haven't even learned yet) or practice; they're just "rockin' and rollin!" That's why so many people can "spar" but not fight. I have a range of exercises that build to sparring, beginning with partner practices, running through controlled/assigned role sparring and eventually culminating in free sparring with various rules.

 

[Dave Simmons]

There's sparring... and there's sparring. Or, as my teacher would say "there are people with footwork, and people with working feet."

As I define it -- sparring is a method of practicing the learned techniques under a particular form of pressure. To too many people today, sparring is "swapping leather and blood and sweat"; there's no emphasis on developing the learned techniques (which they haven't even learned yet) or practice; they're just "rockin' and rollin!" That's why so many people can "spar" but not fight. I have a range of exercises that build to sparring, beginning with partner practices, running through controlled/assigned role sparring and eventually culminating in free sparring with various rules.

Doc,

Sometimes I swear we are on the same page! How true sparring is not fighting! Posturing is a beating waiting to happen. My initial teaching on fighting is targeting and attack not waiting. I guess I am too old for "games".

 

[Doc]

There's sparring... and there's sparring. Or, as my teacher would say "there are people with footwork, and people with working feet."

As I define it -- sparring is a method of practicing the learned techniques under a particular form of pressure. To too many people today, sparring is "swapping leather and blood and sweat"; there's no emphasis on developing the learned techniques (which they haven't even learned yet) or practice; they're just "rockin' and rollin!" That's why so many people can "spar" but not fight. I have a range of exercises that build to sparring, beginning with partner practices, running through controlled/assigned role sparring and eventually culminating in free sparring with various rules.

I love it!