Why Don't Many of Kenpo's "Top Guns" Spar?

Good post, I like your example of the Martial arts where the teacher is expected to be better than the students, so true. I don't really see that anywhere else. Even in boxing I've never looked in the fighters corner and thought, man that little old guy who's telling that boxer what he's doing wrong could really kick some butt, lol
Being an “oldster” from the other side of the fence… (Tracy Style) LOL! I still believe I am entitled to enter an opinion here. It never ceases to amaze me the way we sometimes have or acquire unrealistic expectations in Kenpo. Regardless of years in the art, or at the art, if you prefer, along with the deeper knowledge and methods of deviousness and outthinking young guys, there still seems to be that need to bring down someone. If they aren’t sparring, then they may not necessarily be useful, even in the rarified ranks.
I know, I know… That sounds negative, but … Nay, say I.
Most of the guys who are senior now were getting their lumps and making their bones before all the rules and protections were in place. Personally, I remember, many years ago, in a “light contact” match, taking a reverse spinning heel hook center in the throat. Yeah! My bad. I didn’t see it in enough time to pull off something amazing and block it. I went down like a ton of bricks. To this day, I still have bits of bone floating around in my neck because I was dim enough to simply shake it off and continue on continuing. They’ve now been there so long that they have their own cartilaginous sheaths. LOL.
I once soldiered on with a broken bone in my foot. Walking with an ace wrap, tight kung fu slippers, and a cane, continuing to teach. Once, I had a finger removed in a knife defense demo that went horribly amok and awry, because we were doing it in a wrestling wring… And most of you know how bouncy those can get. Well, that was one aspect of the critter that I forgot about until about half a second after I stepped off and blocked the knife attack, only to have the whole cadre bounce up in the air, and the knife (A Rambo III) come down from a bounce and take my finger. J
I have little bits of scar tissue in areas of my brain (MRI certified) that wouldn’t be there had I not taken a few hard shots thrown when I was fighting 20 guys at a time. ROFL!!!!
My point is that most of the seniors have taken their shots as well as given them. If one gets through his Kenpo career without scars, broken bones, sprains, and dislocations, another one begins to wonder how he or she made it that far, and taught anyone anything. That’s the price we pay for the profession we’ve chosen. Hell… Most warriors, in the old days, didn’t live that long, anyway. Regardless of the quality of healthcare that we have nowadays, fighting takes it’s toll. I for one, still can bang, but find the price paid after, is often a bit higher than I remember it being 30 years ago.
My deepest respect to Sigung LaBounty. And I believe he knows it, but I have to say, I don’t mind not sparring with the youngsters, all that often. They aren’t any fun, and they hurt! Rofl!
Funnily, martial arts are one of the few “sports” where the coaches are expected to be on top 7x24 and to be better than most of the folks they are teaching. For example, ask Mike Ditka to go play a full quarter or half game. Think he could? Maybe, maybe not, but he can damn sure take a bunch of youngsters with some skill, hone that skill and make them do it, at least as well as he did, if not better. Or take my own beloved St. Louis Cardinals… The guys who coach there are pretty fair at what they do, coach and teach, I question whether any of them could get out and play a real “for keeps game”.
I’m not saying that the oldsters aren’t lethal. Not by any means. One of the things I learned is that what I lost in speed and brute force, as I aged, I made up for with stealth, sneaky, and experience. As I said, I don’t mind banging once in a while, but I’d rather save it for the day I really may need it, if I can.
Maybe Jamie Seabrook should take a page from the Japanese Shotokan Stylists (Just sort of kidding here Jaime…) The students of Funakoshi Gichen so beloved and respected him that when he was teaching, well into his 90s, the students used to carry him up and down stairs in the various dojos, so as to save his strength for teaching.
I’m not saying that Kenpoists need to show that kind of gratitude, or respect for senior instructors or Masters. What I am saying is that it often doesn’t work that way… A sixty year old instructor may not be able to bang with the 20 year olds. That is not his lot. He should, however, be able to show them how to come through bad times relatively unscathed, and that… That is the use of the seniors, in my relatively humble opinion.
And before anyone really poohs on my opinion, just remember, you too will be old someday. You may be fortunate enough to have all your bones and joints, ligaments and tendons, and such intact. You may have never stupidly blocked a spinning heel hook with your throat, but all the little things do tend to add up over the years and you will find yourself moving slower, a little less limber, and moaning a little more "enthusiastically" the next morning. :ultracool
I’m probably really wrong here, but just thought it would be fun to throw in a contrary opinion.

Dan :)

 
Everyone has to find their own way and their own time and place for doing things. Personally I respect everyone who trains hard and if you do not spar that is fine too. There is a lot to be learned from the wisdom of instructors that have taught for a long time even if they are not in their physical prime as they may have reached their mental/spiritual prime. I have been exposed to several of the best as they have aged and that exposure has had a profound effect on my own training and learning curve.
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Well Mr. Seabrook, this is a good topic. Let me answer it as one of those "Seniors" who does 'strap it on and bangs'
Using the 7th degree as a starting point. I received my 7th from the SGM in 1985, I was 47 years old. You're a 6th, accomplished as an artist, author and connected to a valid lineage and you're in your early 30's. Most likely you'll receive your 7th while in your 30's whereas in my day, and many others even younger than I, were in their 40's when they got their 7th's, some even older. Now it's important to delineate 'banging' as a 30+ old man and a 40, 50+ man who has weathered the storms of the early days. No gear, poor protection when available, and improper methods of execution that resulted in numerous injuries that have become residual wounds that hamper any sort of 'banging' to the extent that I think you're speaking of.
The fighting now in my lineage is primarily kick boxing influenced, i.e. leg kicks, knee's, elbows. We also do primarily Ne-Waza from Judo as our method of ground work, though like most, we are very influenced by the MMA techniques. All of my students MUST know how to fall, roll, and wrestle at the minimum. This is done for the very reasons you mentioned, that it never escapes the student that it is a [IMartial Art and must always been seen as that first. We don't do, and haven't done in a long time any form of point fighting. It's just not our choice at this stage of our developement.
So, I at 65 years of age, I grapple with a 16 year old female, my senior male and female students too, and get my *** handed to me there, then kicked by them during stand up. BUT, I freakin' love the "juice" and the limberness it offers. Thank God, they don't go all out, I would be in several baskets around the school other wise.
So let me leave you with an old man and higher ranked perspective. In my day(I hate a sentence that starts like that, but...) no gear, result, broken jaw, twice, all the fingers on my left hand broken, right boxers fracture, knee's shot from football, power/olympic lifting, ne-waza, Judo, catch wrestling, et.
I doubt I would be much of a workout for someone like you, especially in view of all the arts you're interested in or studied. But, you wouldn't have to go looking for me, I'd be trying....
Good subject
In spirit.
S. LaBounty

LaBounty,

An excellent reply:)

I think alot of people out there misunderstand the upper ranks in Kenpo - it's more about embracing more of the dragon then the tiger.

Kudos to you LaBounty! My hat's off
 
Hello, Why top Kenpo's do not spar? ....our bodies grow older, heals slower, moves slower. Yet internal power grows stronger.

Plus we get WISER! we turn from student to teacher....pass things on!

In most sports, boxing, wrestling,tennis,swiming,basketball,football, (any physcial sport....is very demanding on the body, that is why it is mostly younger people in the teens and early thirties are able to perform and compete.

NOT to say many older Kempo/Kenpo seniors do not spar....many still do.

As one gets older...priority changes too, MOST seniors feel it is NOT neccessary to spar to defend themselves. (we use our brains more).

The skills we learn from a lifetime of training is built in from doing things over and over for years (remember it takes about 2000-3000 or more of one technique to make it a part of you). Many of them...know what will work for them, just that the body is getting very older and less strong than as a youth.

One day you will see yourself in this group (seniors) above 50's...and find it is NOT necessary to spar.

Just my opinion here, Awareness and Avoidance....are the true lessons (never get yourself into confrontations). Seniors know what they can do IF and ONLY IF! defend oneself or help others.........Aloha
 
Hello, Why top Kenpo's do not spar? ....our bodies grow older, heals slower, moves slower. Yet internal power grows stronger.

Plus we get WISER! we turn from student to teacher....pass things on!

In most sports, boxing, wrestling,tennis,swiming,basketball,football, (any physcial sport....is very demanding on the body, that is why it is mostly younger people in the teens and early thirties are able to perform and compete.
Good points, especially: internal power + wisdom = knowing you can get it done in a real situation, but not practicing in full pads, full contact (or even 3/4) everyday (slipped back to the football analogy for a minute :))

NOT to say many older Kempo/Kenpo seniors do not spar....many still do.
And I want to state for the record I have the utmost respect for those in their late 40s, 50s, 60s and beyond who still spar. But we all have different histories, and a different list of injuries, to contend with. :)

As one gets older...priority changes too, MOST seniors feel it is NOT neccessary to spar to defend themselves. (we use our brains more).

The skills we learn from a lifetime of training is built in from doing things over and over for years (remember it takes about 2000-3000 or more of one technique to make it a part of you). Many of them...know what will work for them, just that the body is getting very older and less strong than as a youth.

One day you will see yourself in this group (seniors) above 50's...and find it is NOT necessary to spar.

Just my opinion here, Awareness and Avoidance....are the true lessons (never get yourself into confrontations). Seniors know what they can do IF and ONLY IF! defend oneself or help others.........Aloha
Yes, many of us save the *all-out* for the time we may really need it. :asian:

BTW, don't want to give the impression I'm one of the 'Top Guns' mentioned in the OP, because I'm not; just an old war horse. :D
 
A Senior is not defined by his rank, he is one who has put decades into and has contributed alot for his art.
I have been told that if you enjoy doing something then don't let your age stop you.
:highfive:
 
I'm in my late forties and I still spar, but to bang full speed, full contact, well, it's not done too often, if at all. Since moving on from where I was, I have visited a few different schools and participated in classes. They are a bit shocked at the contacted used in my techniques, which tells me that I was raised correctly, with contact ... I call it light contact, which it is, in no way is it full contact. Even during sparring, I have had competitors come up to me, after beating my butt and tell me that I am the one they would never want to run into in the street, cause of the power. This is the greatest compliment I could receive, cause sparring, afterall, is a game.

Nowadays, my sparring usually consists of me working on something in particular, rather than just banging. I may work on kicking. I may work strictly on defense, no striking, just trying to not get hit. Maybe sweeping; trapping; checking; off-balancing; evasion ... you get the drift ... pick one thing, and work on it. I lose my matches in the dojo, I personally don't care. I care about whether or not I was able to get anywhere on what I was working. I am there to learn, I can not learn as much winning every match. I learn by trying things and making mistakes ... and thus gain experience. If I'm going to make mistakes, I want it to be during training where we are all friends, not on the street. Sparring allows me to try things, to grow, without my life on the line.

Again, I am in no way a "Top Gun", however, sparring is a tool. Not going full contact may lessen the tool in some minds, but not in mine. Granted it may be saving me some pain, not going all out, but I can assure you, cause I know me, it is saving others a great amount of pain. MA is fun, but to me it is not a game. Sparring is a necessary tool, but for all intents and purposes, it is a game, not real life, even if banging full speed. Real life will be much more intense and move much faster. The sparring experience can go a long ways towards slowing down the real life confrontation ... again, it is a tool, a game. IMHO.
 
Great responses from everyone, no doubt.

Let's dig a little further.

I think most are on the same page that continuous sparring (at least medium contact or harder) can be very beneficial for one's skills. But why is it that many students (local, national, or international) of some of Kenpo's "top guns" have never once seen the instructor spar, let alone heard of it?

Granted, sparring may not be the instructor's "cup of tea". But, in my humble opinion, he/she should still set the example and AT LEAST periodically (once every month or couple of months) get out there and show them how it is done.

I hear and read of a lot of Kenpoists saying they don't like sparring because it is too limited (I agree BTW - sparring and a streetfight are NOT the same thing). But then they use that to excuse the fact that they hardly ever spar and that sparring won't help them. I disagree completely.

Mr. Labounty commented that he still gets out there, and takes shots (albeit not necessarily full-out, of course). He even says that he's on the receiving end from time to time. He has my utmost respect. He truly leads by example. He is a true warrior. It's not about winning or losing; it's about passion and leadership.

Here is my point. I understand that age takes a toll on our body big-time. But naturally, I am often swayed towards the seminars of instructors that have a truckload of experience in all areas of their training, of which sparring is but one. That is one of the reasons why when I was a WKKA member back in the mid 1990s I just loved the seminars given by guys like Frank Trejo and Dennis Nackord. Those guys are known for their sparring ability.

In response someone might say: "but we all have something that we specialize in, maybe its techniques, maybe its forms, maybe its sparring, maybe its teaching, ect". I agree. But to be COMPLETE martial artists, including those who hold high rank, shouldn't we be striving to balance out and work at ALL aspects of our training, of which sparring cannot be neglected?

Why is Randy Couture so good? Because he works at it, daily. Yes, he will probably need to retire soon. But I bet my bottom dollar, that when he does retire, he will still train others and get out there and SHOW THEM by example what he wants.

My former kung fu instructor is in his high 50s. He fight continuous EVERY week against many top black belts (he wins too, BTW). How is he able to do it? Persistence and passion. Does this look like a guy in his high 50s:

www.northernblackdragon.com


I welcome thoughts. These discussions are great.

BTW - if anyone missed my orginal blog to start this thread, it can be found here:


http://jamieseabrook.blogspot.com/2007/08/high-ranking-black-belts-that-dont-spar.html
 
Here is my point. I understand that age takes a toll on our body big-time.
With all due respect, Mr. Seabrook, I'm not sure you really do understand this point. I see from your info that you're in your early 30s. So, I'm going on that assumption (please correct me if I'm wrong). Now, even in my early 40s I could still run down teenagers. I could play football with them in pickup games, basketball, volleyball, and, ...well, you get the idea. Today at 56, my knees are so shot that, yes, I might be able to chase down a group of teens that needed to be caught (not a game, but if they had or were about to cause a dangerous situation for the kids I work with), but the long-term effects on my knees would most likely be permanent damage. So, should I practice running every day--or week, or month--to be 'in shape' for the possibility of the real thing? I don't think so.


Why is Randy Couture so good? Because he works at it, daily.
But he doesn't have to go to work--even as a MA teacher--the next day. And he hasn't had to do so in a 9-5 job for the last 20 years, which also has a cumulative stress effect. BIG difference.

Yes, he will probably need to retire soon. But I bet my bottom dollar, that when he does retire, he will still train others and get out there and SHOW THEM by example what he wants.
But having spent a good portion of his life devoting all day every day to staying in shape--and getting paid to do so--his body may be in a different place at that age than someone with a different history.

My former kung fu instructor is in his high 50s. He fight continuous EVERY week against many top black belts (he wins too, BTW). How is he able to do it? Persistence and passion. Does this look like a guy in his high 50s:

www.northernblackdragon.com
I have nothing but respect and admiration for your former instructor, but again, everyone's life has been different. I've found it's a very, very slippery slope to tell someone else what they should do. JMHO :asian:
 
With all due respect, Mr. Seabrook, I'm not sure you really do understand this point. I see from your info that you're in your early 30s. So, I'm going on that assumption (please correct me if I'm wrong). Now, even in my early 40s I could still run down teenagers. I could play football with them in pickup games, basketball, volleyball, and, ...well, you get the idea. Today at 56, my knees are so shot that, yes, I might be able to chase down a group of teens that needed to be caught (not a game, but if they had or were about to cause a dangerous situation for the kids I work with), but the long-term effects on my knees would most likely be permanent damage. So, should I practice running every day--or week, or month--to be 'in shape' for the possibility of the real thing? I don't think so.


But he doesn't have to go to work--even as a MA teacher--the next day. And he hasn't had to do so in a 9-5 job for the last 20 years, which also has a cumulative stress effect. BIG difference.

But having spent a good portion of his life devoting all day every day to staying in shape--and getting paid to do so--his body may be in a different place at that age than someone with a different history.

I have nothing but respect and admiration for your former instructor, but again, everyone's life has been different. I've found it's a very, very slippery slope to tell someone else what they should do. JMHO :asian:

I never told anyone what they should do. Everyone has their own choice. The title of the thread is in the form of a question. I simply asked why it is that many of Kenpo's "top guns" avoid slapping on the gear? I ask in humility, but I do ask.

I will continue to fight regularly until my body says "no more".

As a die-hard Kenpoist, I hear from so many Kenpoists why Kenpo is the best of the best. My question:

The best at what? Forms? Sets? Techniques? Street self-defense? Concepts, theories, and principles? Fighting? If the latter, then why don't many fight regularly? Kenpo isn't taken a serious as it should be in MMA because they don't believe we can fight ourselves out of a wet paper bag. Definitely harsh, but definitely true. I have been told this by MANY MMA guys.
 
I never told anyone what they should do....The title of the thread is in the form of a question.
Yet your choice of examples of people in their 40s and 50s who still do what you obviously believe others should do, shows that your question is actually rhetorical, with the expected answer implied.

I will continue to fight regularly until my body says "no more".
That's all well and good, but when will that be? At 32 it's a bit early to lay an undercurrent of judgment on those 10-25 years beyond you who have reached that 'no more' point.

As a die-hard Kenpoist, I hear from so many Kenpoists why Kenpo is the best of the best. My question:

The best at what? Forms? Sets? Techniques? Street self-defense? Concepts, theories, and principles? Fighting? If the latter, then why don't many fight regularly? Kenpo isn't taken a serious as it should be in MMA because they don't believe we can fight ourselves out of a wet paper bag. Definitely harsh, but definitely true. I have been told this by MANY MMA guys.
So now it seems that this is your real concern: Is Kenpo better than MMA, and can it be proved/disproved by sparring/MMA fighting? That's a much different question than the one posed in the OP, which actually could be seen as pointing a finger at some of those who have lived much longer than you have and therefore are much more experienced in life, and have made life choices with which you disagree.
 
Yet your choice of examples of people in their 40s and 50s who still do what you obviously believe others should do, shows that your question is actually rhetorical, with the expected answer implied.

That's all well and good, but when will that be? At 32 it's a bit early to lay an undercurrent of judgment on those 10-25 years beyond you who have reached that 'no more' point.

It should be evident from my posts that, yes, I believe that leaders in Kenpo with loads of rank should also spar. It sets an example. It also takes a lot of physical and mental conditioning.

Is it a fair assumption that you don't spar often?
 
It should be evident from my posts that, yes, I believe that leaders in Kenpo with loads of rank should also spar. It sets an example. It also takes a lot of physical and mental conditioning.

Is it a fair assumption that you don't spar often?

I'm trying not to take your question as an ad hominem attack which is being employed because your other tack hasn't worked. But I'll answer you anyway, even though my point all along has not been about sparring per se, but that no one has a right to sit in judgment of others, and especially not juniors of seniors--in age, if nothing else.

I don't 'spar' at all, in the dueling sense. But it's not really about age in my case, although it would be if I continued to bang away as if I were still 40. It's because I'm philosophically against it as a training tool for street self-defense. Having cross trained in Kung Fu San Soo, I believe the San Soo workout--some might see it as a type of sparring, I suppose-- prepares the MAist for the real deal much better. If you aren't familiar with San Soo, you can visit the CMA section for some background. Now, this doesn't mean I advocate San Soo instead of sparring for everyone. I don't know everyone, or their goals, desires, abilities, or background. But it also means I don't judge them for practicing the MA's their own way.

Now if they're one of my students, then I'm responsible for them, and so I do guide their development. But outside of that, what other MAists do in good faith is not my concern as long as it doesn't affect me. And if they're 15-30 years older than I, I show respect regardless of their position. Just the way I was raised.
 
Granted, sparring may not be the instructor's "cup of tea". But, in my humble opinion, he/she should still set the example and AT LEAST periodically (once every month or couple of months) get out there and show them how it is done. ...



Why is Randy Couture so good? Because he works at it, daily. Yes, he will probably need to retire soon. But I bet my bottom dollar, that when he does retire, he will still train others and get out there and SHOW THEM by example what he wants.


But he's not going to be at the same level he once was. Couture is considered a phenomenon because it is unusual for someone that age to perform at that level. I think that the above mentioned Cus Damato analogy is the best one in terms of what a senior has to offer even into old age. Cus made Patterson a champion and then 25 years later, Tyson. I don't think that he had to step in, strap on the gear and go rounds with either of them to do that. Yet, they both had very similar styles because he taught them both the same way.

For their own sakes, seniors should get in there and spar often enough for their reflexes to stay sharp and for them to retain their ability to not flinch at a thrown punch etc., however, I think another reason is there for some seniors not to spar often with their juniors: braggarts.

How would it feel to have some young punk come in and spar with a well known senior and get the better of him and then for this person to go out and brag that he bested so-and-so? Remember Ron Van Clief in one of the early UFCs? He was beat, but he was in his fifties. The guy that beat him wasn't beating the Ron VanClief in his twenties, but because he went out to fight, the guy was able to say he beat him. Regardless of the fact that this same senior could have wiped the mat with this same young punk twenty years earlier, the guy still goes around bragging. Who needs that aggravation? How hard would it be for some average 26 year-old light-heavy weight kickboxer to beat Joe Lewis now? How would that same guy have fared were he fighting the Joe Lewis of 1975? I doubt very much that Trevor Berbick was overly proud of beating Ali in 1981. If he could have done it in 1971, then he'd have something to talk about.

I think the Eddie Futches and Cus Damatos have a great deal to teach their students about fighting without banging away with them to show them how it's done. If they want to get in there and do it from time to time, cool. Otherwise their value is in being able to teach you to do what they were able to do and to get you to be as good as you can be.
 
It occurs to me that the most obvious reason is usually the best: Perhaps some who don't spar, simply don't like sparring, and having nothing to prove, feel no need to. My Sifu is a Fifth and he spars with us every week. Because sparring is his favorite activity.
 
For their own sakes, seniors should get in there and spar often enough for their reflexes to stay sharp and for them to retain their ability to not flinch at a thrown punch etc.

Remember Ron Van Clief in one of the early UFCs? He was beat, but he was in his fifties.

Good points Danjo.

You said it yourself - seniors should spar OFTEN ENOUGH to keep their reflexes sharp. I personally also think that it sets a great example for one's students.

About Ron Van Clief - I remember Royce Gracie beating him by submission in one of the earlier UFCs. If I recall, Ron is a 10th degree black belt, with black belts in several styles. I think Royce was a 4th or 5th degree black belt at the time. I wholeheartedly agree that Royce was fighting a guy who was not in his 20s anymore. The age difference was like 25 years or something. BUT, the fact is that Ron is a true warrior for doing what he did, and at the end of the day, lost nothing. He proved that he could hang with one of the top fighters on the globe, and that he is the real deal.

Ron would be a guy that I would love to learn from if the opportunity arose one day via seminar or what have you.
 
no one has a right to sit in judgment of others, and especially not juniors of seniors--in age, if nothing else.

I don't 'spar' at all, in the dueling sense.

And if they're 15-30 years older than I, I show respect regardless of their position. Just the way I was raised.

I respect everyone. Please don't say that I don't show respect because you know nothing about me. But I don't always have to agree with people. As such, I disagree completely on your take on sparring, and on a PERSONAL level, think that all high-ranking black belts should still spar periodically.

Sorry, I am not trying to offend you. I just disagree with you.
 
It occurs to me that the most obvious reason is usually the best: Perhaps some who don't spar, simply don't like sparring, and having nothing to prove, feel no need to. My Sifu is a Fifth and he spars with us every week. Because sparring is his favorite activity.

Good post, and hats off to your instructor.
 
I respect everyone. Please don't say that I don't show respect because you know nothing about me. But I don't always have to agree with people. As such, I disagree completely on your take on sparring, and on a PERSONAL level, think that all high-ranking black belts should still spar periodically.
Sorry, I am not trying to offend you. I just disagree with you.
No, you still think this is about me. You're not offending me; you're judging a whole generation of people who have lived a lot longer than you. To me that shows a lack of respect, but since we're from different generations, maybe that's just my own limited viewpoint. ;)

Just to illustrate this limited perspective, though, let me point out that I and thousands like me got orders to ship overseas in the middle of a very ugly war, before you were born. Now, I'm not judging you for that; none of us chooses his date of birth or age. But I am saying maybe we should think about others' possible life journeys--especially those with much longer personal time lines--before we make sweeping generalizations about what they should do with their lives. :)

Anyway, 'nuff said on my part. I'm getting tired of 'hearing' myself talk. :asian:
 
I think too much credit is given to sparring.

For one, it does not reflect street fighting.
Two, for those who do not realize this, it creates a false sense of ability.
Three, it is generally done with rules to protect those involved, so there is no element of fear/anxiety/fight or flight, which are all common reactions in a real fight.

It's more of an excercise really, with the appearance of being practical on the street. I think most senior teachers know this, and so why the need to keep practicing it? Kinda makes you want to look at the motives for the OP.
 
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