Why Don't Many of Kenpo's "Top Guns" Spar?

[Flying Crane]

I
Kenpo isn't taken a serious as it should be in MMA because they don't believe we can fight ourselves out of a wet paper bag. Definitely harsh, but definitely true. I have been told this by MANY MMA guys.

I don't understand why the opinion of the MMA crowd, or any other crowd, should matter at all. If you believe in what you are doing, and you enjoy it, sparring or no, that is what matters.

Very few people outside the MMA crowd train with the intensity that MMA people do. They train hard for that competition. Within the realm of "duelist" type sparring, they will probably win regardless of the style their opponent practices. So using MMA as the yardstick against which everything must be judged, doesn't make sense. Those who are successful in MMA have made a commitment to training and fitness that few others are able to do, and this puts them in the category of an elite athlete.

I used to run regularly, for fitness, just because I enjoyed it. I even competed in track and cross country running in high school. But I never approached the level of an Olypic marathoner. Does that mean my running was meaningless? I still enjoyed it, and even to this day my ability to run has been my most trusted technique for escaping danger, far moreso than any kenpo training i've had, in spite of the fact that I have not run on a regular basis in several years.

Let the MMA people do what they do, and let them think what they want to think. It means nothing to me. My training works for what I need it to do.

 

[Seabrook]

No, you still think this is about me. You're not offending me; you're judging a whole generation of people who have lived a lot longer than you. To me that shows a lack of respect, but since we're from different generations, maybe that's just my own limited viewpoint.

Respect has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with the something. Everyone deserves respect, from my opinion, because they are a card-carrying member of the human race.

You are really getting way too bent out of shape about this......

 

[Seabrook]

I think too much credit is given to sparring.

I think not enough credit is given to sparring.

 

[Monadnock]

I think not enough credit is given to sparring.

Which only gives credence to the fact that there are as many styles of training as there are grains of sand on the beach.

Thing is, they can't all be the same, and their uniqueness is what makes each one special. Forcing them to be the same goes against the laws of nature. Just look at all the resistance met so far...

 

[Danjo]

I think too much credit is given to sparring.

For one, it does not reflect street fighting.
Two, for those who do not realize this, it creates a false sense of ability.
Three, it is generally done with rules to protect those involved, so there is no element of fear/anxiety/fight or flight, which are all common reactions in a real fight.

It's more of an excercise really, with the appearance of being practical on the street. I think most senior teachers know this, and so why the need to keep practicing it? Kinda makes you want to look at the motives for the OP.

I think it develops one's reflexes better than pre-set combinations due to the unpredictable nature of it. In a pre-set technique, you know what is going to be thrown at you etc., whereas with free sparring, you do not. This will help you in a street fight more than not sparring will. Secondly, it depends on the type of sparring that we're talking about. Some of it mimics a real encounter fairly closely including contact, while other types are basically games of tag. Either way, increased reflexes and stamina are valuable qualities that will help in a real encounter even if it doesn't replicate every part of a street fight.

It's the same in other sports. Batting cages and pitching machines are not the same as being pitched to by a good pitcher (Baseball or Tennis). Tackle dummies are not the same as tackling a real person. Shadow boxing, bag work and sparring are not the same as a real fight, but have been in use for hundreds of years to good effect. They're training devices that have a legitimate place in training.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think it develops one's reflexes better than pre-set combinations due to the unpredictable nature of it. In a pre-set technique, you know what is going to be thrown at you etc., whereas with free sparring, you do not.

true, but you can develop drills that are in between. An attacker doesn't announce what he will attack with, and the defender needs to respond and defend until the attacker has been nullified based on an established criteria. This isn't free sparring, but it is a drill with a level of "randomness" in the attack and the scenario, as well as contact and force.

Secondly, it depends on the type of sparring that we're talking about. Some of it mimics a real encounter fairly closely including contact, while other types are basically games of tag.

very true, and perhaps this accounts for much of the disagreement. In many of the tournaments i have seen, participants don a plethora of bulky body armour, then hop on one foot while trying to tag the opponent with the extended other foot, all the while off-balance and clumsily slapping at whatever similar, sloppy attack the other guy is simultaneously trying to throw. In my opinion, this kind of sparring is worthless. And it's not just Olympic style Tae Kwon Do where I have seen this. I've seen it in kenpo circles as well.

But sparring with less armour and more control, yet with some force and contact and realism, without regard for points, and with an intent to control the situation rather than just trade blows, can be a useful drill.

Shadow boxing, bag work and sparring are not the same as a real fight, but have been in use for hundreds of years to good effect. They're training devices that have a legitimate place in training.

very true.

 

[Seabrook]

I think it develops one's reflexes better than pre-set combinations due to the unpredictable nature of it. In a pre-set technique, you know what is going to be thrown at you etc., whereas with free sparring, you do not. This will help you in a street fight more than not sparring will. Secondly, it depends on the type of sparring that we're talking about. Some of it mimics a real encounter fairly closely including contact, while other types are basically games of tag. Either way, increased reflexes and stamina are valuable qualities that will help in a real encounter even if it doesn't replicate every part of a street fight.

It's the same in other sports. Batting cages and pitching machines are not the same as being pitched to by a good pitcher (Baseball or Tennis). Tackle dummies are not the same as tackling a real person. Shadow boxing, bag work and sparring are not the same as a real fight, but have been in use for hundreds of years to good effect. They're training devices that have a legitimate place in training.

Great post and analogies. I agree 100%.

 

[Seabrook]

true, but you can develop drills that are in between.

But sparring with less armour and more control, yet with some force and contact and realism, without regard for points, and with an intent to control the situation rather than just trade blows, can be a useful drill.

Good post Michael.

I agree with your "in between" drills, but why settle for "in between"?

I like your comments about sparring types. I don't like tag-fighting for points. All of my students (and myself) fight continuous with medium to heavy contact, including leg kicks, and take-downs.

 

[Flying Crane]

Good post Michael.

I agree with your "in between" drills, but why settle for "in between"?

Thank you.

I guess I don't see it as "settling" for something in between, but rather what is it you wish to get out of the drill?

When you go face-to-face and duke it out, you are approaching fighting as something like a "duel", with two "contestants" facing off willingly and on somewhat equal footing. This is the stuff of a competition. If you like that approach, then go for it, but it creates a make believe scenario that I don't think reflects true self defense. I think the drill I outlined is perhaps closer to mimicking a random attack by a thug. He launches his attack in a way and at a time that you don't expect, and you need to respond to survive the attack and either nullify and neutralize him, and/or get away. That is closer to what self-defense is about, in my opinion. But training this way won't give you the skills to be successful in an MMA competition.

Facing down an opponent and willingly engaging him in a slugfest isn't really self defense. It's more of a competition of skill and toughness. If you enjoy that, there is nothing wrong with it, and that does have a place in the martial arts. But it's not what everyone is interested in. I think for real self-defense, freesparring can still be useful, but maybe not as useful as some believe. I feel you can get very good self defense skills without true freesparring, altho I recognize that certain kinds of freesparring can also contribute to self defense skills.

So I guess where I am seeing things, quality freesparring can be beneficial, but it isn't automatically necessary, depending on what you want to get out of your training. Certain kinds of skills can definitely be developed without it.

 

[Danjo]

Thank you.

I guess I don't see it as "settling" for something in between, but rather what is it you wish to get out of the drill?

When you go face-to-face and duke it out, you are approaching fighting as something like a "duel", with two "contestants" facing off willingly and on somewhat equal footing. This is the stuff of a competition. If you like that approach, then go for it, but it creates a make believe scenario that I don't think reflects true self defense. I think the drill I outlined is perhaps closer to mimicking a random attack by a thug. He launches his attack in a way and at a time that you don't expect, and you need to respond to survive the attack and either nullify and neutralize him, and/or get away. That is closer to what self-defense is about, in my opinion. But training this way won't give you the skills to be successful in an MMA competition.

Facing down an opponent and willingly engaging him in a slugfest isn't really self defense. It's more of a competition of skill and toughness. If you enjoy that, there is nothing wrong with it, and that does have a place in the martial arts. But it's not what everyone is interested in. I think for real self-defense, freesparring can still be useful, but maybe not as useful as some believe. I feel you can get very good self defense skills without true freesparring, altho I recognize that certain kinds of freesparring can also contribute to self defense skills.

So I guess where I am seeing things, quality freesparring can be beneficial, but it isn't automatically necessary, depending on what you want to get out of your training. Certain kinds of skills can definitely be developed without it.

I agree that the drills you speak of are valuable. I know we do them in addition to sparring. Prof. Bishop will have an attacker come in with either a punch or kick of their choice while the defender has to counter/block/deflect it and finish the attacker off. It does develop skills very nicely in addtion to free sparring and both are valuable training tools.

 

[Flying Crane]

It does develop skills very nicely in addtion to free sparring and both are valuable training tools.

bingo.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Personally, I enjoy sparring but I'm only 34 and definitely not a Kenpo "Top Gun".

Sparring is a valuable training tool but I think the random drill that Michael is speaking of is more valuable for self-defense.

If I'm attacked on the street, my attacker is not likely going to be circling with probing kicks and punches in a boxing/kickboxing stance. More likely he will try to take my head off with a power punch or sucker punch or tackle me.

The Makiwara is a valuable training tool too but I don't think it's necessary for me to harden my fists that much. Besides, I'd like to continue playing the guitar as I age.

_Don Flatt

 

[Carol]

If a random student joins MT and expresses that they are unhappy with the amount of sparring done at their school, what would the responses be like?

I'd predict that most of the responses would be...helpful advice over how to approach their instructor about the situation...or stories of how other MAists solved the same dilemma....or questions that ask if the student is in the right school for their goals...or something similar.

If we can show a random, unknown, unproven, student that we respect their right to choose their own Martial Arts path, then why can't we show this same respect for the folks that have earned a "top gun" rank in Kenpo?

 

[LawDog]

Carol, that is a very interesting point of view..
:supcool:

 

[Flying Crane]

If a random student joins MT and expresses that they are unhappy with the amount of sparring done at their school, what would the responses be like?

I'd predict that most of the responses would be...helpful advice over how to approach their instructor about the situation...or stories of how other MAists solved the same dilemma....or questions that ask if the student is in the right school for their goals...or something similar.

If we can show a random, unknown, unproven, student that we respect their right to choose their own Martial Arts path, then why can't we show this same respect for the folks that have earned a "top gun" rank in Kenpo?

Bingo. Why would I ever try to tell a senior guy that he doesn't spar enough, or he spars too much? why would he even give two turds about what I think? It's his own journey, as it is my own, and I would also expect the same courtesy for myself.

 

[Danjo]

If a random student joins MT and expresses that they are unhappy with the amount of sparring done at their school, what would the responses be like?

Why would someone join Muy Thai and not want to spar? I think he'd be told to find another place to train.

 

[Flying Crane]

Why would someone join Muy Thai and not want to spar? I think he'd be told to find another place to train.

well, on the other hand, Muay Thai is a combat SPORT, and as such sparring and competing are the expressed goal. It's kind of like wanting to get your driver's license, but not wanting to drive a car. The two go pretty much hand-in-hand.

But other arts, like kenpo, are more self defense oriented. That doesn't automatically mean you MUST spar, at least not in a sporting way. Of course the sporting aspect is available for those who are interested, but self defense doesn't mean you must train for the sporting side of the art. That's where the journey is your own, you decide the path(s) you wish to travel.

edit: I just realized, I think there was a misunderstanding here. When Carol said "join MT", I believe she meant "joint Martial Talk", and ask for advice from people here. I don't think she meant Muay Thai.

 

[Carol]

Correct. I meant if a random student joined MartialTalk. Perhaps I should have said if a random Kenpo student joins MartialTalk.

 

[Big Don]

Perhaps I should have said if a random Kenpo student joins MartialTalk.

I'm a random Kenpo student!
I cannot understand why someone would want to learn any form of martial arts if they weren't going to practice it. Sparring, in my humble opinion, is vital, no, it isn't a "real" fight, but, if you spar every week, and your attacker hasn't been in a fight in years, who do you think will come out on top?

 

[14 Kempo]

I'm a random Kenpo student!
I cannot understand why someone would want to learn any form of martial arts if they weren't going to practice it. Sparring, in my humble opinion, is vital, no, it isn't a "real" fight, but, if you spar every week, and your attacker hasn't been in a fight in years, who do you think will come out on top?

I'll take a stab at this one, play devil's advocate here - hypothetically speaking of course ...

The first fighter, a 5' 8", 140 lb, 85 year old "top gun" that has been studying since he was 12, has had six knee operations, has two ruptured discs in his lower back, needs a hip replacement, can't lift his left arm above the shoulder due to wear and tear, but has been sparring with his students twice a week since he started running a school. The second fighter, a 23 year old bar brawler, 6' 3" 225 lbs that has been in prison twice for busting people up, he has never sparred, but he's undefeated in the real world. They square up for some unknown reason, what are the odds of the guy that doesn't spar winning?

I know, making stuff up ... exactly ... we could all come up with scenarios where sparring has helped and where it had made no difference. I believe that what most people have been saying here is that there are times when sparring is not a necessity in training. I believe that if you can do it, do it, it can only help unless sustaining injury. But if a person, a top gun, has spent his whole life training on fighting within any given style, must they cane their way into a ring and spar to prove themselves ... I say hell no! They have plenty to pass on ... just my two cents.