Why Don't Many of Kenpo's "Top Guns" Spar?

[Seabrook]

One thing that I truly believe in is spontaneity training. No, not just drills. But via fighting someone who is trying to hit you back, and hard. One of the reasons, in my opinion, why a lot of MMA guys are tough, is because they fight....a lot.

If someone holds a high-ranking black belt, say 6th degree and higher, shouldn't they continue to strap on the gear and lead by example to improve their students (and themselves)?

One problem that I believe many Kenpo black belts have is that they, for all intensive purposes, worship the 154 techniques. They believe that all they need to do is practice them over and over, dazzle the crowd a bit with their speed and knowledge, and they are fighting machines.

I have a lot of respect for all high-ranking black belts who continue to humble themselves to the level of student, by continuing to fight with their students and peers for the betterment of their students and themselves.

For more thoughts on this, please see my new blog:


http://jamieseabrook.blogspot.com/2007/08/high-ranking-black-belts-that-dont-spar.html


Thoughts?

 

[stoneheart]

Well said, Mr. Seabrook. I think it's important to still get on the floor and duke it out occasionally even if one is senior in both years and experience. We all know that hotshot brown belt in his twenties can sometimes best even a highly ranked dan grade in sparring. It's important as a complete teacher to both understand that for yourself and to not let ego stand in the way of a junior student besting, since sometimes that's another way to teach...

 

[Monadnock]

One factor may be age. I don't know that many older folk who still get into full contact sparring. Then again, I don't know who is included in the "Top guns" bracket either.

Sparring is only a piece of the pie in most systems. How important it is varies with the teacher. I don't think all advancement is stopped because a teacher does not spar.

My $.02

 

[Sigung LaBounty]

Well Mr. Seabrook, this is a good topic. Let me answer it as one of those "Seniors" who does 'strap it on and bangs'
Using the 7th degree as a starting point. I received my 7th from the SGM in 1985, I was 47 years old. You're a 6th, accomplished as an artist, author and connected to a valid lineage and you're in your early 30's. Most likely you'll receive your 7th while in your 30's whereas in my day, and many others even younger than I, were in their 40's when they got their 7th's, some even older. Now it's important to delineate 'banging' as a 30+ old man and a 40, 50+ man who has weathered the storms of the early days. No gear, poor protection when available, and improper methods of execution that resulted in numerous injuries that have become residual wounds that hamper any sort of 'banging' to the extent that I think you're speaking of.
The fighting now in my lineage is primarily kick boxing influenced, i.e. leg kicks, knee's, elbows. We also do primarily Ne-Waza from Judo as our method of ground work, though like most, we are very influenced by the MMA techniques. All of my students MUST know how to fall, roll, and wrestle at the minimum. This is done for the very reasons you mentioned, that it never escapes the student that it is a [IMartial Art and must always been seen as that first. We don't do, and haven't done in a long time any form of point fighting. It's just not our choice at this stage of our developement.
So, I at 65 years of age, I grapple with a 16 year old female, my senior male and female students too, and get my *** handed to me there, then kicked by them during stand up. BUT, I freakin' love the "juice" and the limberness it offers. Thank God, they don't go all out, I would be in several baskets around the school other wise.
So let me leave you with an old man and higher ranked perspective. In my day(I hate a sentence that starts like that, but...) no gear, result, broken jaw, twice, all the fingers on my left hand broken, right boxers fracture, knee's shot from football, power/olympic lifting, ne-waza, Judo, catch wrestling, et.
I doubt I would be much of a workout for someone like you, especially in view of all the arts you're interested in or studied. But, you wouldn't have to go looking for me, I'd be trying....
Good subject
In spirit.
S. LaBounty

 

[LawDog]

I agree with Sigung Labounty and Mr Seabrook. I for one do not worship the "preset" one steps. These presets are training tools that are used to help develope the basic / advanced pattern skills. For application you need live drills combined with "standing" and / or "ground" free style.
:boxing:

 

[MattJ]

Refreshing to hear from seniors that still get out there. Much respect.

 

[Seabrook]

Well Mr. Seabrook, this is a good topic. Let me answer it as one of those "Seniors" who does 'strap it on and bangs'
Using the 7th degree as a starting point. I received my 7th from the SGM in 1985, I was 47 years old. You're a 6th, accomplished as an artist, author and connected to a valid lineage and you're in your early 30's. Most likely you'll receive your 7th while in your 30's whereas in my day, and many others even younger than I, were in their 40's when they got their 7th's, some even older. Now it's important to delineate 'banging' as a 30+ old man and a 40, 50+ man who has weathered the storms of the early days. No gear, poor protection when available, and improper methods of execution that resulted in numerous injuries that have become residual wounds that hamper any sort of 'banging' to the extent that I think you're speaking of.
The fighting now in my lineage is primarily kick boxing influenced, i.e. leg kicks, knee's, elbows. We also do primarily Ne-Waza from Judo as our method of ground work, though like most, we are very influenced by the MMA techniques. All of my students MUST know how to fall, roll, and wrestle at the minimum. This is done for the very reasons you mentioned, that it never escapes the student that it is a [IMartial Art and must always been seen as that first. We don't do, and haven't done in a long time any form of point fighting. It's just not our choice at this stage of our developement.
So, I at 65 years of age, I grapple with a 16 year old female, my senior male and female students too, and get my *** handed to me there, then kicked by them during stand up. BUT, I freakin' love the "juice" and the limberness it offers. Thank God, they don't go all out, I would be in several baskets around the school other wise.
So let me leave you with an old man and higher ranked perspective. In my day(I hate a sentence that starts like that, but...) no gear, result, broken jaw, twice, all the fingers on my left hand broken, right boxers fracture, knee's shot from football, power/olympic lifting, ne-waza, Judo, catch wrestling, et.
I doubt I would be much of a workout for someone like you, especially in view of all the arts you're interested in or studied. But, you wouldn't have to go looking for me, I'd be trying....
Good subject
In spirit.
S. LaBounty

You are such a great inspiration and leader. I give you so much respect.

I have to get the opportunity to learn from you.

I will send you a PM sometime soon.


With honor,

Jamie

 

[Seabrook]

I agree with Sigung Labounty and Mr Seabrook. I for one do not worship the "preset" one steps. These presets are training tools that are used to help develope the basic / advanced pattern skills. For application you need live drills combined with "standing" and / or "ground" free style.
:boxing:

I concur wholeheartedly.

Great post.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well Mr. Seabrook, this is a good topic. Let me answer it as one of those "Seniors" who does 'strap it on and bangs'
Using the 7th degree as a starting point. I received my 7th from the SGM in 1985, I was 47 years old. You're a 6th, accomplished as an artist, author and connected to a valid lineage and you're in your early 30's. Most likely you'll receive your 7th while in your 30's whereas in my day, and many others even younger than I, were in their 40's when they got their 7th's, some even older. Now it's important to delineate 'banging' as a 30+ old man and a 40, 50+ man who has weathered the storms of the early days. No gear, poor protection when available, and improper methods of execution that resulted in numerous injuries that have become residual wounds that hamper any sort of 'banging' to the extent that I think you're speaking of.
The fighting now in my lineage is primarily kick boxing influenced, i.e. leg kicks, knee's, elbows. We also do primarily Ne-Waza from Judo as our method of ground work, though like most, we are very influenced by the MMA techniques. All of my students MUST know how to fall, roll, and wrestle at the minimum. This is done for the very reasons you mentioned, that it never escapes the student that it is a [IMartial Art and must always been seen as that first. We don't do, and haven't done in a long time any form of point fighting. It's just not our choice at this stage of our developement.
So, I at 65 years of age, I grapple with a 16 year old female, my senior male and female students too, and get my *** handed to me there, then kicked by them during stand up. BUT, I freakin' love the "juice" and the limberness it offers. Thank God, they don't go all out, I would be in several baskets around the school other wise.
So let me leave you with an old man and higher ranked perspective. In my day(I hate a sentence that starts like that, but...) no gear, result, broken jaw, twice, all the fingers on my left hand broken, right boxers fracture, knee's shot from football, power/olympic lifting, ne-waza, Judo, catch wrestling, et.
I doubt I would be much of a workout for someone like you, especially in view of all the arts you're interested in or studied. But, you wouldn't have to go looking for me, I'd be trying....
Good subject
In spirit.
S. LaBounty

This is a good post and very informative. Times do change and as we all age we change as well. Still we can all do and strive to be our best. Major kudos to Mr. LaBounty for doing your best and getting out there and doing what you can do.

 

[MJS]

I feel that it is important to get out and mix it up. Now, we all have jobs to go to, so it is important to keep the risk of injury in the back of your mind, but I don't think that you have to go full contact all the time either. Med-heavy contact should be good. IMO, I just don't see how doing the preset techs and nothing more can keep you well rounded. Mix it up and keep it alive!!:ultracool

Mike

 

[terryl965]

All I want to add is this remember alot of students will start to look down upon there instructor when they loose a fight or get there tail handed to them. In my opinion these folks are idiots but still hey tend to beleive that myth about us as instructor no matter age or anything else are suppose to be able to kick anybody butt. When they see it is not true anymore they tend to look else where for training, I have seen this over and over again.

Just my .02 cent worth.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I think Mr. LaBounty hit the nail on the head more than many will get. At an event recently, we had several seniors from kenpo in attendence. Every single one of them has had surgery of some form for injuries associated with their martial arts activities. One guy had 2 hip replacements; one had a knee done; and one had bits of bone removed from his neck where they were pushing on his spinal cord. Which one should have been made to go a round with all 50 people in attendence?

The way I see it, the old timers did their time, and have earned the right to coach. There's the old, "Nobody expected Cus De'amato to go rounds with Ali or Tyson, but he could sure as hell tell them how to do it better" thing. I still get out and bang; I'm in my (we'll call it) mid-40's. But I don't bring the intensity I used to, because when I do, the blown discs in my back get so hoppin mad at me, I can end up in bed or on the floor for over a week. Hardly worth the satisfaction of putting some talented 20-something brown belt in his place.

That's why we train up big, hairy, ugly younger dogs as assistant instructors...so they can do it for us. I have great respect for Mr. LaBounty's willingness to clang bones in contact. I'm not near him in years, and am already backing off the high-intensity kick-boxing & grappling, for my own pain-free living's sake. Intense sparring is fun, but you still gottas be able to take out the trash and clean the kitchen the next day.

Best Regards,

Dr. Dave

 

[arnisador]

At an event recently, we had several seniors from kenpo in attendence. Every single one of them has had surgery of some form for injuries associated with their martial arts activities.

Eh, that part is discouraging, isn't it?

 

[phlaw]

Great post Mr. LaBounty!

 

[marlon]

My respect to Sigung LaBounty. I love going at it. i love my teacher hitting me harder than i thought possible and any student who wants we go. the thing i have no respect for is teachers who compete against students in competions. Good thread.

BTW i have been doing martial arts for 25 years and kempo for 17 and have my 4th can't imagine when i'll get my fifth let alone beyond..but what matters is that i keep learning growing and improving...training is truth.

respectfully,
marlon

 

[14 Kempo]

I believe I am in agreement with most on this thread, I am in my late-40's and began my martial arts in 1985, however, in no way am I a "Kenpo Top Gun". The time for big-time banging, for me, has passed. Injuries when you're 20 heal faster than when you are 30, which heal faster than when you are 40 and so on. I do get out there and mix it up a bit with 'the kids', but I don't last as long as I use to in a grappling situation ... I'm sure some of you know what I'm talking about.

As we get older we rely more on technique, experience and smarts to beat our opponents, trying to out muscle a 20-something on the ground isn't in the cards. Randy Couture, at age 44, is a phonomenon, not the norm and training is his life.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for those that have put in the time within the art and those that teach me. The amount of information that I pick up when my seniors mix it up, even if at three-quarter or even half speed is more than I can usually process.

I could go on, but I believe I've made my point, so I'll leave it at that.

Kudos Sigung LaBounty, and all of you that are my seniors whether by time or rank, keep it up!

 

[LawDog]

14K,
I understand what you say and agree with you about a persons injury recovery time. I am 59 and still get on the floor with those young lightning bolts. What I have done is to not "free stryle" as often as I used to. In this way the ole bod will have it's much needed recovery time. Those young lightning bolts can get away with free styling a few times a week where I free style only once every week or two.
It really sucks when you get older.
:disgust:

 

[SensibleManiac]

This is an excellent post, although I heavily believe in sparring, I mostly believe in INTELLIGENT sparring which I do believe is missing alot of times out there. Too much ego involved instead of the betterment of those involved.
The teacher should be able to ask the student what did you learn from this sparring session. And if the student can't answer then somethings amiss.
Also safety should be of primary importance. Being in my mid thirties, I can't go the way I used to also because of some injuries sustained admittedly because of my ego and refusing to quit, (which sometimes can be a bad thing).
You should always be sparring to learn not hurt each other.
I can't say what I'll be doing into my 40's or over because I'm not there yet.
I do have tons of respect for those who continue to spar in their later years. I can honestly say I never really learned how to fight until I sparred, before that everything was just practice. My skills increased dramatically as did my confidence when I could see what I could do.

 

[Sigung86]

Being an “oldster” from the other side of the fence… (Tracy Style) LOL! I still believe I am entitled to enter an opinion here. It never ceases to amaze me the way we sometimes have or acquire unrealistic expectations in Kenpo. Regardless of years in the art, or at the art, if you prefer, along with the deeper knowledge and methods of deviousness and outthinking young guys, there still seems to be that need to bring down someone. If they aren’t sparring, then they may not necessarily be useful, even in the rarified ranks.
I know, I know… That sounds negative, but … Nay, say I.
Most of the guys who are senior now were getting their lumps and making their bones before all the rules and protections were in place. Personally, I remember, many years ago, in a “light contact” match, taking a reverse spinning heel hook center in the throat. Yeah! My bad. I didn’t see it in enough time to pull off something amazing and block it. I went down like a ton of bricks. To this day, I still have bits of bone floating around in my neck because I was dim enough to simply shake it off and continue on continuing. They’ve now been there so long that they have their own cartilaginous sheaths. LOL.
I once soldiered on with a broken bone in my foot. Walking with an ace wrap, tight kung fu slippers, and a cane, continuing to teach. Once, I had a finger removed in a knife defense demo that went horribly amok and awry, because we were doing it in a wrestling wring… And most of you know how bouncy those can get. Well, that was one aspect of the critter that I forgot about until about half a second after I stepped off and blocked the knife attack, only to have the whole cadre bounce up in the air, and the knife (A Rambo III) come down from a bounce and take my finger. J
I have little bits of scar tissue in areas of my brain (MRI certified) that wouldn’t be there had I not taken a few hard shots thrown when I was fighting 20 guys at a time. ROFL!!!!
My point is that most of the seniors have taken their shots as well as given them. If one gets through his Kenpo career without scars, broken bones, sprains, and dislocations, another one begins to wonder how he or she made it that far, and taught anyone anything. That’s the price we pay for the profession we’ve chosen. Hell… Most warriors, in the old days, didn’t live that long, anyway. Regardless of the quality of healthcare that we have nowadays, fighting takes it’s toll. I for one, still can bang, but find the price paid after, is often a bit higher than I remember it being 30 years ago.
My deepest respect to Sigung LaBounty. And I believe he knows it, but I have to say, I don’t mind not sparring with the youngsters, all that often. They aren’t any fun, and they hurt! Rofl!
Funnily, martial arts are one of the few “sports” where the coaches are expected to be on top 7x24 and to be better than most of the folks they are teaching. For example, ask Mike Ditka to go play a full quarter or half game. Think he could? Maybe, maybe not, but he can damn sure take a bunch of youngsters with some skill, hone that skill and make them do it, at least as well as he did, if not better. Or take my own beloved St. Louis Cardinals… The guys who coach there are pretty fair at what they do, coach and teach, I question whether any of them could get out and play a real “for keeps game”.
I’m not saying that the oldsters aren’t lethal. Not by any means. One of the things I learned is that what I lost in speed and brute force, as I aged, I made up for with stealth, sneaky, and experience. As I said, I don’t mind banging once in a while, but I’d rather save it for the day I really may need it, if I can.
Maybe Jamie Seabrook should take a page from the Japanese Shotokan Stylists (Just sort of kidding here Jaime…) The students of Funakoshi Gichen so beloved and respected him that when he was teaching, well into his 90s, the students used to carry him up and down stairs in the various dojos, so as to save his strength for teaching.
I’m not saying that Kenpoists need to show that kind of gratitude, or respect for senior instructors or Masters. What I am saying is that it often doesn’t work that way… A sixty year old instructor may not be able to bang with the 20 year olds. That is not his lot. He should, however, be able to show them how to come through bad times relatively unscathed, and that… That is the use of the seniors, in my relatively humble opinion.
And before anyone really poohs on my opinion, just remember, you too will be old someday. You may be fortunate enough to have all your bones and joints, ligaments and tendons, and such intact. You may have never stupidly blocked a spinning heel hook with your throat, but all the little things do tend to add up over the years and you will find yourself moving slower, a little less limber, and moaning a little more "enthusiastically" the next morning. :ultracool
I’m probably really wrong here, but just thought it would be fun to throw in a contrary opinion.

Dan

 

[kidswarrior]

My point is that most of the seniors have taken their shots as well as given them. That’s the price we pay for the profession we’ve chosen.... fighting takes it’s toll.

True story.

Funnily, martial arts are one of the few “sports” where the coaches are expected to be on top 7x24 and to be better than most of the folks they are teaching. For example, ask Mike Ditka to go play a full quarter or half game. Think he could?

Was just thinking this myself, earlier today (it is now football season :ultracool).

As I said, I don’t mind banging once in a while, but I’d rather save it for the day I really may need it, if I can....

What I am saying is that … A sixty year old instructor ... should, however, be able to show them how to come through bad times relatively unscathed, and that… That is the use of the seniors, in my relatively humble opinion.

I agree. And for those of us who are as banged up as you've described yourself, if we don't go carefully, we could easily find ourselves unable to even teach any longer. It's not inconceivable.

And before anyone really poohs on my opinion, just remember, you too will be old someday. You may be fortunate enough to have all your bones and joints, ligaments and tendons, and such intact. You may have never stupidly blocked a spinning heel hook with your throat, but all the little things do tend to add up over the years and you will find yourself moving slower, a little less limber, and moaning a little more "enthusiastically" the next morning. :ultracool

Already there, Brother.

I’m probably really wrong here, but just thought it would be fun to throw in a contrary opinion.

Well, I agree with you, for what it's worth. And while we may be in the minority, I would say to have serious merit, this discussion would have to be limited to those over a certain age--and I don't mean 30 :lol: