Why doesn't boxing, wrestling, and most Western fighting sports suffer from the Mcdojo phenomenon?

[JowGaWolf]

I'm sure there are some horrible schools that teach boxing and wrestling.
It's probably more difficult to get away with in boxing and wrestling being that both have fewer working parts than martial arts. When I say that I'm a boxer or a wrestler, then you can pretty have a good idea of what I do. If I say that I'm a Martial Artist you'll still be just as clueless as you were before I told you that I do martial arts.

 

[drop bear]

I'm sure there are some horrible schools that teach boxing and wrestling.
It's probably more difficult to get away with in boxing and wrestling being that both have fewer working parts than martial arts. When I say that I'm a boxer or a wrestler, then you can pretty have a good idea of what I do. If I say that I'm a Martial Artist you'll still be just as clueless as you were before I told you that I do martial arts.

Well you also just check out what fights they have won. Which will give you a fair indication of ability.

 

[lklawson]

Can you show me about 10 of such McDojos that specifically states that someone would be guaranteed a promotion in a certain amount of time if they paid for it? Most will give you a range in time frame, but it's not guaranteed. Like BJJ, many people do ask how long to get to a Blue belt and most will answer: about 1-1.5 years of dedicated training of at least 3x per week but not guaranteed.

I've seen them personally. They never explicitly say in their advertising or handbook/manual. But when you talk with the instructor there's a subtext of <wink><wink> and no one ever fails their tests. They also often have sub-belt gradings. "First Stripe Decided Yellow Belt." Yes, I actually knew of someone with that rank.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I'm sure there are some horrible schools that teach boxing and wrestling.
It's probably more difficult to get away with in boxing and wrestling

More difficult? Darn near impossible. It's the competition thing that does it. Schools that consistently field losers or gain a rep for producing sub-par competitors lose their students and financially die. You just can't keep the doors open if people aren't paying and Catholic Priests aren't teaching boxing in the basement any more and the Y doesn't seem to want to have boxing classes like they used to.

being that both have fewer working parts than martial arts.

It's not about the "working parts" it's about whether or not the general boxing/wrestling community can look at their students and say, "they know what they're doing and have solid fundamentals."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tez3]

More difficult? Darn near impossible. It's the competition thing that does it. Schools that consistently field losers or gain a rep for producing sub-par competitors lose their students and financially die. You just can't keep the doors open if people aren't paying and Catholic Priests aren't teaching boxing in the basement any more and the Y doesn't seem to want to have boxing classes like they used to.

It's not about the "working parts" it's about whether or not the general boxing/wrestling community can look at their students and say, "they know what they're doing and have solid fundamentals."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

However the boxing club can hold it's own comps and produce 'winners', fight nights don't have to be registered with the ABA. There's a lot of unlicensed boxing nights where boxers from anywhere can fight, you just match up the not so good ones with the worst ones. If you run more than boxing club it's even easier especially if they are in different towns.

Christian unlicensed boxing

 

[Koshiki]

However the boxing club can hold it's own comps and produce 'winners', fight nights don't have to be registered with the ABA. There's a lot of unlicensed boxing nights where boxers from anywhere can fight, you just match up the not so good ones with the worst ones. If you run more than boxing club it's even easier especially if they are in different towns.

Christian unlicensed boxing

True, but I think it's still a good deal more difficult to stray into fantasy land when there's some spirited competition. You may not be quality, but at least you won't be as likely to expect completely non-functional methodologies to be a solid staple of your practice.

 

[Tez3]

True, but I think it's still a good deal more difficult to stray into fantasy land when there's some spirited competition. You may not be quality, but at least you won't be as likely to expect completely non-functional methodologies to be a solid staple of your practice.

No, you just end up with brain damaged 'fighters.

 

[Koshiki]

No, you just end up with brain damaged 'fighters.

That too.

 

[elder999]

Who says they don't?

LA Boxing Looks To Cash In On Popularity Of MMA

 

[JowGaWolf]

Who says they don't?

LA Boxing Looks To Cash In On Popularity Of MMA

I think they are going after the Gym Junkies who like to exercise all the time and pump weights.
The same thing that she is doing with kung fu is the same thing he's going to do with boxing and MMA. Turn it into a fitness class

LOL I couldn't resist because kung fu just gets associated with the worst lol. But seriously. This is what LA Boxing looks like

My guess is that they imitate the moves more so than having an understanding of the moves and techniques such as knowing when to throw them, what to look out for, and how to protect your head. They will be fit, but not fit like a fighter, nor will they have the heart, focus, or warrior mentality that fighters have. They could train hard for 4 years and they would be less than a real boxing beginner with 3-6 months of training with some sparring under their belt.

After more research LA Boxing was bought out by UFC Gym in 2013

 

[TSDTexan]

Ya.. I shared this a few months back.

 

[TSDTexan]

I agree with everything you've said up to this point. I don't have a problem with the belt system, but whether I did or did not, it's not going to go away, so one can object to it all they like; it's here to stay.

The problem, IMHO, is that non-martial artists tend to think that belts are an objective and/or external system of ranking, which we all understand they are not.

Bill,
As I tell my students that belt is to (at a glance) show a teacher where the student has progressed in learning the curriculum. Therefore, the belt is for the teacher not the student.

However, as belt oriented , JMA and KMAs have made their way west... a lot of finer points get lost in transit. In the west, the belt is viewed as something the student has "earned" and with it a measure of implied ability.

I almost want to toss belts altogether and break up the curriculum into either semesters or trimesters, and test on established test dates quarterly (2 primaries, and two makeup dates)
And then rank by year and half year completions.

The biggest issue, imo, is that the belts generally (in many systems) don't translate into applied real world fighting skill due to broken teaching methodology.

 

[Paul_D]

most Amateur level MMA fighters will beat the living crap out of them pretty easily in on the streets

Do you have links to show where you are getting this information from?

 

[elder999]

Bill,
As I tell my students that belt is to (at a glance) show a teacher where the student has progressed in learning the curriculum. Therefore, the belt is for the teacher not the student.
.

Actually, the belts are for students-so higher ranked students can recognize the knowledge and ability level of their fellow students, and train with them accordingly-though there were originally, in Judo, only white belts and black belts, with the colored belts being added later by foreign practitioners

I'd venture that as a teacher, you could put white belts on fifty students of varying levels of knowledge and ability, and I could pretty well sort most of them out to where they were in belt level/years of study, though maybe not before some of them hurt each other for not knowing...at a glance.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill,
As I tell my students that belt is to (at a glance) show a teacher where the student has progressed in learning the curriculum. Therefore, the belt is for the teacher not the student.

However, as belt oriented , JMA and KMAs have made their way west... a lot of finer points get lost in transit. In the west, the belt is viewed as something the student has "earned" and with it a measure of implied ability.

I almost want to toss belts altogether and break up the curriculum into either semesters or trimesters, and test on established test dates quarterly (2 primaries, and two makeup dates)
And then rank by year and half year completions.

The biggest issue, imo, is that the belts generally (in many systems) don't translate into applied real world fighting skill due to broken teaching methodology.

They don't translate because people are different. Teaching is different. Standards do not exist. Probably never will.

And I did not earn my rank. I was entrusted with it. Very different concept, and it means it is an ongoing relationship and conversation.

 

[lklawson]

Bill,
As I tell my students that belt is to (at a glance) show a teacher where the student has progressed in learning the curriculum. Therefore, the belt is for the teacher not the student.

Sure they are. They help a student understand what is required to progress in the system, where he stands in understanding and skill in relationship to other students who he may need to help teach or learn from, and gives him goals to work toward.

Belts are for everyone.

However, as belt oriented , JMA and KMAs have made their way west...

The system isn't belt oriented, humans are. Humans NEED a way to measure their progress and compare themselves against their fellows. It is an inherent psychological trait. Any teacher or system who doesn't recognize that and give the students and outlet or method for measuring themselves is engaging in self delusion. Systems which do not have progress grades ("belts," levels, or ranks) are heavily focused on competition. Boxing and Wrestling are two prime examples. There are even hybrid types such as modern Boxe Francaise which has Glove "levels" both based on skill and on competition.

a lot of finer points get lost in transit. In the west, the belt is viewed as something the student has "earned" and with it a measure of implied ability.

Just as it is everywhere else.

I almost want to toss belts altogether and break up the curriculum into either semesters or trimesters, and test on established test dates quarterly (2 primaries, and two makeup dates)
And then rank by year and half year completions.

<shrug> You'll still be achieving the exact same thing in the minds of the students.

There's always a "ranking" method. If there isn't then the students will figure out a way to do it themselves, even if it means going out on friday night and picking fights.

The biggest issue, imo, is that the belts generally (in many systems) don't translate into applied real world fighting skill due to broken teaching methodology.

The two aren't directly related and I don't believe that they were intended to be.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

And I did not earn my rank. I was entrusted with it. Very different concept, and it means it is an ongoing relationship and conversation.

Don't think of it as a "rank." Think of it as a "grade."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Don't think of it as a "rank." Think of it as a "grade."
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I'm military. Can't help it.

 

[TSDTexan]

I'm military. Can't help it.

Exactly. So many of the MA brought back to the US were learned by GIs.

Belt = Rank is written into the school subculture of oh so many schools. Because this was the attitude of the teachers/dojo founders.

 

[TSDTexan]

Don't think of it as a "rank." Think of it as a "grade."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

This is actually my thought.
The life of grading falls roughly into something like:
Underclassmen, classmen, senior classmen, junior instructors, instructor, masters, and professors.