Why DO they hate us so much?

[Tez3]

sorry tez just using mma as an example not targeting it as culprit i should have been more clear

That's alright don't do it again young man! ( you have to picture me as a little old lady peering ( I said peering!) over her glasses at you while you read this!)
I get very defensive about MMA, I thnk I might a thread about it, I could call it why do they hate us so much lol!

 

[hungfistron]

Dont let those who have not truely researched and learned for themselves tell you how effective your martial art is.

The true question is that if that person is truely a martial artist, why do they seek to elevate their martial art above yours? And if they believe they are correct, can they prove it?

 

[qwksilver61]

Hey ,when you can fight without lifting a finger....you've mastered yourself.
I experience nasty,rude people daily,the best part....I don't have to be one of them.Being flexible isn't this what Wing Chun is all about?

 

[Triballus]

Hey All. This is my first post so bare with me.

To keep in line with the original topic. On a danish page on martial arts i found these links, ( I am a dane myself ;-) which to me represents the essence of what is commercially "wrong" with wing chun (generic)

http://www.chinesechainpunchingkungfu.com/

http://www.poonsao.com/

This imo is not wing chun (generic) this is TV-SHOP!!, There are probably worse eksampels some would think. This was just one i happened to stumble upon..

On the whole issue of wing chunners not doing well in MMA fights/UFC (i ampainting with broad strokes here) I think your point is valid also. The generel public (typical couch-fighters ;-) has seen wing chun practioners doing bad in these to them "ultimate" tests and by this judge us to be "nothing".
I say, in line with the others in this thread, turn the other cheek. Focus what makes you happy about our art and rest assure that you are laerning a uniqe sport...

regards Mads

Three months into Weng chun (Hoffman system) and loving it!! ;-)

 

[theletch1]

Welcome aboard, Tribbalus! The kind of things that you'll find on pages designed to bring in students are almost comical sometimes, aren't they? Take a look at many aikido videos on youtube or any other video site and you'd have a very poor opinion of aikido. There is just no substitute for hands on practice.

When you get a chance you should go over to our Meet and Greet section and introduce yourself to the board at large. Happy posting.

 

[dungeonworks]

Yes, they dedicate an entire month to bashing WC (_ing _un sucks month), well they do this for many styles..

But what I saw as a testament to what you said about their egos was when they had (tried to have) BJJ & MMA sucks month, the furry and complaints coming from their members forced the mod to retract on stating that these two styles could ever suck.

They had the chance to show that they're doing these "style X sucks month" out of fun, but they cannot even poke fun at themselves. And that to me is very sad.

Seeker, it's *********....the best example of a running mouth and empty brained "herd mentality" run amok! :wink2: For more on that, please see Sherdog Forums as well. Most of these bashers really think MMA/BJJ are the be all/end all to any fight. I believe that about 80-85% of this is a product of adolescent's in possession of a keyboard and internet connection creating accounts and feeding into it because it makes them feel better about things uncontrollable in their life....and just want to fit in and found a place they can write insults to each other and have a proclaimed common ground, no matter how unfounded or ignorant of Martial Arts they are. Bottom line, they are kids and will learn with life experience.

I am brand new to Wing Chun but not to martial arts. I have studied Tae Kwon Do, Koei-Kan-Karate-Do, Kickboxing (American rules/no leg kicks), and did some training at a local MMA/Grappling club. They all have things I can and at times have used. For me, this is what I got from each:

Tae Kwon Do: Good long range kicks and leg flexibility. I kick better from my TKD experience than anyother art I have thus far seen.

Koei-Kan-Karate-Do: Toughness. Full contact sparring educates you in technique....especially defensively. I also learned some basic Judo throws that have proven useful in two bar altercations.

Kickboxing: Movement, boxing skills, and more toughness :hammer:. I was able to tie together what kicking combinations in real-time full power felt like. I also was able to become more adept with my offensive hand skills and my physical fitness level was never higher, even better than when I was in the Army.

MMA/Grappling: Showed me the holes in my game created from too much reliance on kickboxing and further improved on my kicking as the kick-game changed when I was sparring guys with decent wrestling ability. A few hard takedowns after attempting kicks above the waist that I could get away with all day long kickboxing really got me interested in learning some low level kicks ala Muay Thai. The there is the grappling. I enjoyed it very much as a game, but as practice in MMA sparring, i focused so much more on takedown defence and escapes than anything simply because I am by roots a striker.

I am an MMA fan....BIG MMA fan and have been since the first UFC's came about in the early 90's. Even then they had rules. BJJ ruled that era because they had fighters from styles that didn't deal with grappling very well for the most part. Let's face it, it showed gaping holes in their game. MMA is the closest "sport" we have to seeing an actual fight and their are things to learn from it as well. Enter the wrestler, Mark Coleman, Dan Severn, and Tito Ortiz ect. They came around and it showed weakness to the BJJ guys with thier ability to control the body through physuical attributes + technique. They created ground and pound that is not uncommon in a street fight. Enter the kickboxer, namely Maurice Smith and then Chuck Liddell. They figured out how to beat both BJJ and wrestling by takedown avoidance and submission escapes. Now, they all need to be well rounded in ALL aspects of the game because it has evolved full circle and into it's own "MMA style" with MMA gyms popping up all over God's creation. These gyms focus on techniques for the ring/cage. They are practiced VERY hard with a lot of blood, sweat, and tears. It takes a special kind of person to subject themselves to that kind of training. Now, compare the average MMA guy to the fat out of shape guy in a gi standing in the window of your average McDojo/McDojang/McKwoon (and I've seen a lot of them) boasting that he can train you into a lethal killing machine without any kind of contact in sparring. Which is gonna appear more legit? It is no suprise many people will equate the UFC/MMA with real fighting, especialy if they are not martial artists or have not experienced an altercation since school, if ever.

What is my point (and there is one!) to all this (assuming anyone got past the preceding paragraph! :lol2: )??? Every form of fighting we see in MMA is from traditional martial arts be it Jujitsu's, Wrestling (various), Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai, Kung Fu's...ect. An arm bar is an arm bar no matter how you apply it. There are only certain ways to bend an appendage or choke out a person. Well, most any of those bashing Wing Chun or anyother style is doing so out of ignorance. Their mouth is getting ahead of their brain. They are exposed much more frequently to the sport of MMA than the study or exhibition of TMA. Not every technique in each style is suitable to the in ring rules that limit certain skill sets contained in a style (some more/less than others)....notably Wing Chun with it's targeting of the eyes, throat, groin...ect. The answer is as simple as that.

 

[brocklee]

Seeker, it's *********....the best example of a running mouth and empty brained "herd mentality" run amok! :wink2: For more on that, please see Sherdog Forums as well. Most of these bashers really think MMA/BJJ are the be all/end all to any fight. I believe that about 80-85% of this is a product of adolescent's in possession of a keyboard and internet connection creating accounts and feeding into it because it makes them feel better about things uncontrollable in their life....and just want to fit in and found a place they can write insults to each other and have a proclaimed common ground, no matter how unfounded or ignorant of Martial Arts they are. Bottom line, they are kids and will learn with life experience.

I am brand new to Wing Chun but not to martial arts. I have studied Tae Kwon Do, Koei-Kan-Karate-Do, Kickboxing (American rules/no leg kicks), and did some training at a local MMA/Grappling club. They all have things I can and at times have used. For me, this is what I got from each:

Tae Kwon Do: Good long range kicks and leg flexibility. I kick better from my TKD experience than anyother art I have thus far seen.

Koei-Kan-Karate-Do: Toughness. Full contact sparring educates you in technique....especially defensively. I also learned some basic Judo throws that have proven useful in two bar altercations.

Kickboxing: Movement, boxing skills, and more toughness :hammer:. I was able to tie together what kicking combinations in real-time full power felt like. I also was able to become more adept with my offensive hand skills and my physical fitness level was never higher, even better than when I was in the Army.

MMA/Grappling: Showed me the holes in my game created from too much reliance on kickboxing and further improved on my kicking as the kick-game changed when I was sparring guys with decent wrestling ability. A few hard takedowns after attempting kicks above the waist that I could get away with all day long kickboxing really got me interested in learning some low level kicks ala Muay Thai. The there is the grappling. I enjoyed it very much as a game, but as practice in MMA sparring, i focused so much more on takedown defence and escapes than anything simply because I am by roots a striker.

I am an MMA fan....BIG MMA fan and have been since the first UFC's came about in the early 90's. Even then they had rules. BJJ ruled that era because they had fighters from styles that didn't deal with grappling very well for the most part. Let's face it, it showed gaping holes in their game. MMA is the closest "sport" we have to seeing an actual fight and their are things to learn from it as well. Enter the wrestler, Mark Coleman, Dan Severn, and Tito Ortiz ect. They came around and it showed weakness to the BJJ guys with thier ability to control the body through physuical attributes + technique. They created ground and pound that is not uncommon in a street fight. Enter the kickboxer, namely Maurice Smith and then Chuck Liddell. They figured out how to beat both BJJ and wrestling by takedown avoidance and submission escapes. Now, they all need to be well rounded in ALL aspects of the game because it has evolved full circle and into it's own "MMA style" with MMA gyms popping up all over God's creation. These gyms focus on techniques for the ring/cage. They are practiced VERY hard with a lot of blood, sweat, and tears. It takes a special kind of person to subject themselves to that kind of training. Now, compare the average MMA guy to the fat out of shape guy in a gi standing in the window of your average McDojo/McDojang/McKwoon (and I've seen a lot of them) boasting that he can train you into a lethal killing machine without any kind of contact in sparring. Which is gonna appear more legit? It is no suprise many people will equate the UFC/MMA with real fighting, especialy if they are not martial artists or have not experienced an altercation since school, if ever.

What is my point (and there is one!) to all this (assuming anyone got past the preceding paragraph! :lol2: )??? Every form of fighting we see in MMA is from traditional martial arts be it Jujitsu's, Wrestling (various), Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai, Kung Fu's...ect. An arm bar is an arm bar no matter how you apply it. There are only certain ways to bend an appendage or choke out a person. Well, most any of those bashing Wing Chun or anyother style is doing so out of ignorance. Their mouth is getting ahead of their brain. They are exposed much more frequently to the sport of MMA than the study or exhibition of TMA. Not every technique in each style is suitable to the in ring rules that limit certain skill sets contained in a style (some more/less than others)....notably Wing Chun with it's targeting of the eyes, throat, groin...ect. The answer is as simple as that.

I love to watch UFC but think people and fans are persuaded that BJJ and grappling are the best to use because most fighters use it in the ring. I'd like to see someone grapple on the pavement. This is where anti-grappling comes in handy and will leave you the victor in a street brawl. WC is strictly for street fighting and can't be used successfully with rules or limitations. Do a google search of "wing chun vs streetfighter" and watch the video. That's how a fight should go down, and probably WOULD go down, if a WC'er were able to fight UFC with our rules and on pavement. I believe the fights would be very swift and UFC would lose $$ because fans wouldn't be satisfied with a 15 second fight.

just my 2 cents

 

[dungeonworks]

I love to watch UFC but think people and fans are persuaded that BJJ and grappling are the best to use because most fighters use it in the ring. I'd like to see someone grapple on the pavement. This is where anti-grappling comes in handy and will leave you the victor in a street brawl. WC is strictly for street fighting and can't be used successfully with rules or limitations. Do a google search of "wing chun vs streetfighter" and watch the video. That's how a fight should go down, and probably WOULD go down, if a WC'er were able to fight UFC with our rules and on pavement. I believe the fights would be very swift and UFC would lose $$ because fans wouldn't be satisfied with a 15 second fight.

just my 2 cents

Here's Wing Chun vs Karate in sport...but as I mentioned I am new to Wing Chun and could not tell anyone that this "is" Wing Chun he is using. He dominated the guy to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ3-Hi-kMNo&feature=related

I see what you are saying about sport rules limiting Wing Chun....and here's a good example of what you are saying, that Wing Chun confined to speciffic rules and limits. Wing Chun vs Kyokushin Karate under Kyokushin rules...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ3-Hi-kMNo&feature=related

That being said, Kyokushin is a pretty devastating system unto itself.

 

[brocklee]

Here's Wing Chun vs Karate in sport...but as I mentioned I am new to Wing Chun and could not tell anyone that this "is" Wing Chun he is using. He dominated the guy to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ3-Hi-kMNo&feature=related

I see what you are saying about sport rules limiting Wing Chun....and here's a good example of what you are saying, that Wing Chun confined to speciffic rules and limits. Wing Chun vs Kyokushin Karate under Kyokushin rules...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ3-Hi-kMNo&feature=related

That being said, Kyokushin is a pretty devastating system unto itself.

Competition fighting is a bit different compared to an open street fight. The essence of fear isn't as great during a tournament match because the opponents rely on the rules that were created. A person can be #1 in the ring using their martial art but on the street....its a completely different battle because it's no holds barred.

 

[dungeonworks]

Competition fighting is a bit different compared to an open street fight. The essence of fear isn't as great during a tournament match because the opponents rely on the rules that were created. A person can be #1 in the ring using their martial art but on the street....its a completely different battle because it's no holds barred.

brocklee, I PM'd you more of a response to not go off topic to far. I do agree with you, some sport technique translates well into the street when adapted in a realistic sense.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The essence of fear isn't as great during a tournament match because the opponents rely on the rules that were created. A person can be #1 in the ring using their martial art but on the street....its a completely different battle because it's no holds barred.

True

But then the same thing can be said for many non-sport martial arts that never get into a fight (and hopefully never will) outside of a sparring match in the school also under controlled conditions as well as environmentally favorable conditions as compared to what happens in the street. Somebody really hits you with intent to hurt you is a VERY different thing.

But as it has been said already, this is getting into stuff for another post.

 

[Twin Fist]

I can't imagine why anyone would be angry.

But I often "bash" wing chun as a "martial art." It's just not very effective against an athletic, competent fighter.

But I have no hatred for wing chun practitioner's, that would just be silly and misplaced.

However, I am quite annoyed with instructors who charge money for Wing Chun as a form of Self-Defense.

It isn't, and that's fraud if they accept money for it.

*sigh*

ok, I know I am gonna regret this, but why do you think that?

 

[dungeonworks]

*sigh*

ok, I know I am gonna regret this, but why do you think that?

I wonder about that line of thought as well. I'd like to hear an insightful and thoughtful response as well....especially when a much respected self defense system such as Krav Maga borrow heavy from Wing Chun striking and targets of opportunity.

 

[Xue Sheng]

*sigh*

ok, I know I am gonna regret this, but why do you think that?

I would too but he said it on page 2 we are now on page 5 and he was asked the same thing at least twice and has not explained yet so I doubt there is an answer coming soon.

 

[Twin Fist]

true enough

 

[vankuen]

Hey guys, for some reason my old account isn't active anymore, and so I had to re-register. Before I say what I'm about to say, let me first preface it by saying I study wing chun still. Though I no longer care to learn "more" of it, having stopped just short of the weapons sets. I was only interested in the empty handed techniques. I'm 31 years old now, I was first introduced to wing chun when I was 13-14 years old. So I've got what I feel a good feel for the system.

Now...onto the OP's question. The reason in general why I think that WC has a bad rap right now, is because everything in the public eye is for the most part crap. There's no easier way to say it; no one has proven themselves or the style in a full contact professional atmosphere. Those that tried failed miserably. The videos on youtube are a joke. Most of the time it's patty cake chi sao or two guys doing what I call chi sao sparring; very rarely do you see it in a real sparring match and when you do it's laughable.

Most of the practitioners' claim superiority and street readiness, yet most of them are out of shape and have never been in a fight in their lives. The forum talk is mostly about lineage wars, history lessons about all the "true" masters from long ago, or some other conversation having nothing to do with gaining the skills and attributes necessary for actual combat.

Long story short: The quality of the majority of wing chun is circumstancial at best, the mentality of the majority of training is lackluster, and the ideals used are so doctrinated that people don't realize that SOME THINGS SIMPLY DO NOT WORK IN REAL LIFE. Not every style has all the answers, wing chun included. The fact that people defend this with their lives, and how it's so obvious with this style in relation to others today, are the reasons why wing chun has a bad rap.

You have to remember a lot of people that complain about wing chun, might possibly have some experience with it as well, either getting training themselves or fighting people that trained in it. Each person's experience will determine their perception of reality. Most people's realities are that wing chun as a whole is crap. Based on the internet and most of what I've seen in person that's true. I can think of only two people that I know that I would not want to fight that study wing chun as a primary art. One is an ex-bouncer who now teaches EBMAS, and another is my step-brother who learned WC in Hawaii and was the person who introduced it to me. It's not the wing chun that makes them scary, it's their personal training ethic and attributes coupled with the structurally sound theories of wing chun. They use the system, the system doesn't use them. They also both learned to expunge that which no longer was found to be useful, and sought supplemental training in areas where wing chun was weak. Maybe there's a trend there...who knows.

 

[geezer]

I can think of only two people that I know that I would not want to fight that study wing chun as a primary art. One is an ex-bouncer who now teaches EBMAS, and another is my step-brother who learned WC in Hawaii and was the person who introduced it to me. It's not the wing chun that makes them scary, it's their personal training ethic and attributes coupled with the structurally sound theories of wing chun. They use the system, the system doesn't use them.

That's the long and short of it. But the truth is not everone can become a total warrior. I've met a few...Emin is one...and these guys could study tiddlywinks and still kick butt. Still for the rest of us mortals, Wing Chun/Tsun, etc. has a lot to offer. It isn't without its limitations, but I certainly feel I've gotten my money's worth...how about you?

 

[vankuen]

I've never really had to pay money for my training, and when I did it was minor...so I've definitely gotten my money's worth.

I've always found it useful, myself--even when I'm boxing or doing kickboxing. Of course it's applied in little snippets here and there while working in between ranges.

 

[Sagat]

Personally I think it's hated sometimes because Wing Chun claims to be the 'Ultimate self-defence' and always seems to claim to be such a strong fighting art, yet whenever there's a time to back up what they say, they can't because it's too brutal, 'we can't throw groin strikes or eye gauges' etc

As it's been said before, MMA is probably the closest thing we have to real fighting, some arts have failed miserably in this, despite the fighters representing their martial art claim to be the 'world best' in their style. Guess what, Wing Chun was one of them.

Might I add, UFC was once bare-knuckle and really was 'anything goes'. Vale-tudo had groin strikes allowed aswell.

Wing CHun failed to prove its effectiveness, hence why there are many WC bashers out there.

Wing Chun will always be glorified due to the fact it is linked with Bruce-Lee. Not everyone believes Bruce-Lee was the greatest fighter who ever lived, yet most of the WC students/masters love to brag he was, ergo more haters.

Sorry Vankuen, just realised you'd summed it up very well. Doesn't matter.

 

[geezer]

Wing CHun failed to prove its effectiveness, hence why there are many WC bashers out there.

OK, now I'm going to tick off a lot of my friends, but I actually agree with you...and my foundation is Wing Tsun. But the majority of the WC/WT guys I know are not fighters--just regular guys that really enjoy training WT/WC. And I'm a geezer not a fighter myself. When I was younger I did have to defend myself a few times and my wrestling background was at least as important as WT in saving my butt. Still, there are a few tough WT/WC bastards around. They don't fight professionally, and they use whatever works. Based on their example, I still believe that WT, wisely applied, can be an integral part of a self defense "diet".