Why DO they hate us so much?

[geezer]

I can't imagine why anyone would be angry.

But I often "bash" wing chun as a "martial art." It's just not very effective against an athletic, competent fighter.

But I have no hatred for wing chun practitioner's, that would just be silly and misplaced.

However, I am quite annoyed with instructors who charge money for Wing Chun as a form of Self-Defense.

It isn't, and that's fraud if they accept money for it.

Oh god, the hatred has found me!!! Seriously though, you've got to define your terms. For me, MMA isn't self defense, it's all out fighting--with or without rules, depending on the venue. Self-defense is an old lady using pepper-spray on a mugger, then kicking him hard in the ...er...cojones! And, regarding Wing Chun/Tsun, after working a few times with Emin Boztepe, I can say that it can be very effective within its range. Sure it has limitations...but then what doesn't?

 

[Tez3]

Oh god, the hatred has found me!!! Seriously though, you've got to define your terms. For me, MMA isn't self defense, it's all out fighting--with or without rules, depending on the venue. Self-defense is an old lady using pepper-spray on a mugger, then kicking him hard in the ...er...cojones! And, regarding Wing Chun/Tsun, after working a few times with Emin Boztepe, I can say that it can be very effective within its range. Sure it has limitations...but then what doesn't?

Not on this forum it hasn't! there's no chance we'd let it lol!
With the user name geezer are you English by any chance as it's an unusual word for a non Englishman. That's an interesting take on MMA by the way!

 

[geezer]

Not on this forum it hasn't! there's no chance we'd let it lol!
With the user name geezer are you English by any chance as it's an unusual word for a non Englishman. That's an interesting take on MMA by the way!

Nah, I'm, not English...probably just watched too many episodes of Red Dwarf. And I am getting older --in my fifties now. Anyway, how do you feel about other traditional martial arts--Taikwondo, traditional Karate, other Kung-fu styles, and so on?

 

[Sukerkin]

Ah, one of our mature members - always a welcome sight, particularly when they have good comedic taste :tup:.

I wont speak for Tez as that would be rude but TMA is the way as far as I'm concerned. I spent more than a decade training in Lau Gar Kung Fu until a fairly horrendous bike accident stole that from me. I've since leapt wholesale into the Japanese Sword arts and am now nidan in MJER.

I generally get quite aggrivated by the "MMA is the roxxorz" attitude that you tend to run into around the Net but if you want a proper and balanced perspective on MMA then Tez is the lass to speak to. She managed to change my mind about the serious followers of MMA anyhow (and I'm stubborn as the proverbial :O).

 

[kidswarrior]

I'm unaware of any MMA link to 'hating' Whin Chun.I know of only one pro fighter here who has practised it, that's Sami Berik. He's a really nice guy, his records not too good because he choses the wrong opponents, nothing to do with his style. He's a good fighter and no one to my knowledge has ever said anything bad about Whin Chun when talking about him.

But see, you're not playing by the *internet warrior* rules, Tez. You actually know fighters, and speak from experience. No fair! :lol:

Oh, and someone needs to have a talk with Sami's manager. Not a good way to bring along a fighter.

 

[kidswarrior]

Ah, one of our mature members - always a welcome sight, particularly when they have good comedic taste :tup:.

Second that.

I wont speak for Tez as that would be rude but TMA is the way as far as I'm concerned.

It is addicting, isn't it? But then MA training probably is too, eh?

I spent more than a decade training in Lau Gar Kung Fu until a fairly horrendous bike accident stole that from me. I've since leapt wholesale into the Japanese Sword arts and am now nidan in MJER.

Yes, kudos again my friend. :asian:

I generally get quite aggrivated by the "MMA is the roxxorz" attitude that you tend to run into around the Net but if you want a proper and balanced perspective on MMA then Tez is the lass to speak to. She managed to change my mind about the serious followers of MMA anyhow (and I'm stubborn as the proverbial :O).

She's done the same for me. I'm not stubborn tho.... :tantrum:

 

[Xue Sheng]

I can't imagine why anyone would be angry.

But I often "bash" wing chun as a "martial art." It's just not very effective against an athletic, competent fighter.

But I have no hatred for wing chun practitioner's, that would just be silly and misplaced.

However, I am quite annoyed with instructors who charge money for Wing Chun as a form of Self-Defense.

It isn't, and that's fraud if they accept money for it.

Ahh here we go again.

And how much Wing Chun have you trained to come to that conclusion or or many REAL wing chun people have you had the chance to train with

 

[Tames D]

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. Exactly what's the basis for your claim (which amounts to an assertion that no WC practitioner, no matter how good, is going to be successful in a no-rules fight against an `athletic, competent fighter')? Just how do you know this?

It's simple, he doesn't.

 

[Doc_Jude]

But I often "bash" wing chun as a "martial art." It's just not very effective against an athletic, competent fighter.

Yes, I'm sure that Wing Chun folks train to be able to deal with the random street encounter or mugging by a fighter the likes of Chuck Liddell or Tito Ortiz. That happens every day, now doesn't it... get off the knob & grow up. Please.

 

[Tez3]

Geezer Red Dwarf is cool! so's MT! Told you the folks here won't let hate happen!
Thanks guys! I love MMA but then I love all martial arts, my TMAs are TSD and Wado Ryu oh and I'm one of the mature people too lol! Well in age anyway.
I know very little about CMAs, I expect there are people who can't defend themselves in it as there are in all martial arts and there will be people who are taking money and not teaching properly again as there are in all martial arts, that's down to human nature not a particular martial art. You can't just come on here and say oh the whole art is a fraud! It's a sweeping statement that no one is going to believe.

The problem with Sami is that he doesn't have a manager, he takes his own fights which tbh a fighter should never do. He and his brother Huseyin who designed Samis amazing website are the team, their sister Aysen is fighting in CR in a couple of weeks agaisnt a very strong Irish girl and we fear the worse.
Most British MMAers come from a TMA background and while there is some TMA bashing it's usually from the 'spectators' rather than those who train and/or fight. We have several TKD blackbelts who are now highly ranked in MMA as well as MT students and karate. Of course there's a fair few from BJJ who've taken up striking. I'm not sure how widespread CMAs are in the UK though.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Where a lot of it stems from is that many wing chun schools proclaim themselves to be the best fighters out there, yet when it comes to fast time 'evidence', there is none

With the emergence of Youtube and myspace etc, more and more boxing, UFC and kickboxing bouts are being put on and yet there are no good wing chun videos

The trouble is that arts like boxing etc are designed to be performed in a sport environment (under rules etc) Even the UFC with its 'no rules' claim has many rules

Wing chun is one of those arts that is difficult to glove up and show what it can do without hurting someone. i have tried asking my training partners from other arts to video me using wing chn against whatever style they want, but they won't allow it.

And I don't want to go down to martial arts schools and ask them to do the same as they would take it the wrong way

Because of this, wing chun loses a lot of reputation, especially when people like William Cheung and Leung Ting claim to be the best around

Its a shame because as people have said before - it is the person that makes the art. Arts themselves should not be judged as one.
Think how many branches of karate there are. How many styles of grappling there are.

It is easy for the close minded guys to see a couple of videos and judge the whole art by that

 

[Xue Sheng]

Because of this, wing chun loses a lot of reputation, especially when people like William Cheung and Leung Ting claim to be the best around

True and sadly they are the loudest. It has been my experience that the ones that are really really good at a given CMA style tend not to talk about it much.

Its a shame because as people have said before - it is the person that makes the art. Arts themselves should not be judged as one.
Think how many branches of karate there are. How many styles of grappling there are.

Agreed

It is easy for the close minded guys to see a couple of videos and judge the whole art by that

Also very true and in many cases the video being supplied of Art A vs. Art B are put up to show the superiority of Art A in general and belittle Art B. And again generally your best practitioners tend not to video anything for post on YouTube

 

[kidswarrior]

What X-S said.

Good post, Kamon Guy.

 

[The Last Legionary]

I can't imagine why anyone would be angry.

But I often "bash" wing chun as a "martial art." It's just not very effective against an athletic, competent fighter.

But I have no hatred for wing chun practitioner's, that would just be silly and misplaced.

However, I am quite annoyed with instructors who charge money for Wing Chun as a form of Self-Defense.

It isn't, and that's fraud if they accept money for it.

I like you. Opinion without solid fact to back it up. I bet someone told you Wing Chun sucked, maybe you saw a thead on it somewhere else where the IQ average tends towards the single digits? I won't rehash what others already said as it's probably quite above your reading level. I'll be brief.
* Wing Chun is martial art
* Wing Chun effective
* Wing Chun old art, much refined
* Wing Chun not include smelling mans butt = v.good idea
* Most fighters not athletes.
* UFC Cage not street fight or war. It sport fight, like boxing, but with cuddling and hugging. No kissies though. It rule.

Now you go back and justify comments or be labled "Big Poopy Head".

 

[shesulsa]

MODERATION NOTE:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful - we do not art bash here. Please read the General Posting Rules.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Administrator

 

[BFL]

I might be out of line but, I like the "Big poopy head" comment, seems to fit the "attitude" being portrayed. :toilclaw:

 

[Spartan]

Dudes,
I don't agree w/ Bodhisattva, but this person isn't necessarily ripping on WC; he's just saying why he doesn't care for the style (which I don't feel is correct).

Going further, I don't think your giving sufficient rebutles to his claims.

Lastly, your choice of names and analogies Last Legionary are juvenile and only spurns further contention between wing chunners and other stylists.

 

[KamonGuy2]

I have taken many many different styles of martial arts in my short lifetime. Some I have gotten to high ranks, other I have skimmed teh surface of

I would say, without a doubt, that for self defence, wing chun is the best one for me

I am a big guy and so it would be easy to use force to acheive victory but when I played rugby and was doing karate based arts, I would get slaughtered in punch ups

Obviously each kung fu and each wing chun school is different. But when students come to my door, I will teach them realistic, applicable and devastating techniques which are 100% more reliable than moves you will find in other arts (which I will not name)

If there are any doubts, please feel free to send me a private email and I will list the schools that I have trained at and the school I teach at

There are most definately schools out there equal to Kamon, perhaps better, but I have not found them

I understand Bodhi's comment in relation to schools that think a kick to the groin is self defence etc. But many wing chun schools teach excellent self defence. But hopefully, those that don't will one day get exposed

 

[geezer]

Where a lot of it stems from is that many wing chun schools proclaim themselves to be the best fighters out there, yet when it comes to fast time 'evidence', there is none

With the emergence of Youtube and myspace etc, more and more boxing, UFC and kickboxing bouts are being put on and yet there are no good wing chun videos

It is easy for the close minded guys to see a couple of videos and judge the whole art by that

Well my work computer is "screened" and I can't access youtube, and at home I only have a "dial-up" connection--so I don't see much of what's out there. Still a lot of the WC videos I have seen are horrible! I beseech yea of greater technical skills to remedy this situation! Let's get some better videos out there. Although, it might not do any good. Everybody is an armchair expert. Its easy to pick apart what you don't understand. And WC is pretty subtle. What do you think?

 

[kidswarrior]

Let's get some better videos out there. Although, it might not do any good. Everybody is an armchair expert. Its easy to pick apart what you don't understand. And WC is pretty subtle. What do you think?

At yesterday's basic class I ran the video camera in order to be able to send a 'starter' tape to someone who lives too far away to come to classes regularly (I know, not optimal, but still better than nothing). Reviewing the tape last night, I was both satisfied that it captured the basics, and dismayed that in 2D so much was lost. The loss can be overcome somewhat through sketches that will go with the tape, as well as emailing back and forth. But with a Youtube clip, there is none of the latter. Bottom line, I'd hate to have my art/practice/teaching judged by a couple of minutes of video. One reason I'll never post such a clip.

I know this is not specific to Wing Chun, but still believe it's within the topic.